Dave the Mic

Wholly inaccurate on Havelock in 1992. He had few, if any equals internationally in 1992. He won his British Semi & the British Final, reached a run off for the Commonwealth title despite riding with a badly injured hand. He then won the Overseas title & was second in his WC semi, before winning the title at a 5 ride average of 13.33 per meeting. He ripped through his card in the world pairs semi, passing several riders easily including Nielsen & Knudsen & scored paid 17 in the final, excluding the run off. He top scored for England in their WTC qualifier with 14, his only poor meeting was the final in which he scored 7. Over those 10 meetings his 5 ride average was 13.07 & if you exclude the WTC final it was 13.72. I would respectfully suggest he had a decent claim to be champion that year. That's fair enough Steve, if that's how you see it. Few other riders complained. Can Holder not rider grip?

Not really. Five rides, 14 points & Doyle wins. Don't like him at all, but he is the best there is right now. On form he was a worthy winner, but he shouldn't have won. Nielsen did have him off though in that same race & had Sam been excluded when not under power (he had lost a chain) in the same race, there is a good chance Andy Smith could have won it It's only Pearson that does that. Yawn. It was an absolutely appalling GP. Track was terrible, but from those I have spoken too in the past, the racing there is rarely decent anyway. The venue as a GP venue is terrible. Basically a speedway track in a field. I went to Pocking in 93, Norden in 83 & Vojens in 88 which were all much the same. Have we really come nowhere in all that time. They should not hold another GP. The referee. Awful. Too many restarts when not required, got the Zmarzlik exclusion woefully wrong & thought was very harsh on Lindgren who was riding in a straight line when Dudek wasn't & they touched. Holder. What a git. Whined like a baby about the track at Lynn & lo & behold has a great GP on a track more suited to motocross. But then he was riding for himself last night, not his team. Finally Doyle. Don't like him at all, but it does look as though he will get a deserved world title this year.

I am looking too obtain rule books for British Speedway, most notably from the 70's & 80's. If anybody has any they wold be prepared to sell or loan to me, could you please message me? I willing to pay any postal costs & if you would like them returned, I would happily take the info I need & then send the item back to you special delivery. Thanks

I only saw him race twice in the flesh, both at Exeter. Once at a league match in 1975 when he scored about 12 I think & was beaten by Ivan 3 times & then in the SGC in 76 when he ripped through the card for a full max. Very stylish, very quick, very sad.

Not missing your point at all. The riders you mention are rightly classed as legends as much as for what they achieved as for their perception by the speedway public. They also had longevity of greatness, as Hancock has. I think Woffy is a great rider, no mistake & I like him as a racer. Not sure he would be quite in the same league as those you mention either, apart from Pedersen. Legend though? Not yet, in my opinion. I don't recall suggesting Havelock was an "all time great" either. Not once. However suggesting that he was only "very good" is doing him a huge disservice. I wouldn't rate him with any of those riders that have one more than one title, including Woffinden, but that isn't to say that at the peak of his powers he wasn't one of the best around, because he was.

Probably lowest of them all I would think Iris. Still won it though, which is more than can be said for most riders who throw their leg over a bike.

Only by some. I recall regarding an article by Ivan Mauger after the '92 World Final saying he was just what speedway needed. I recall him saying something like, "Look around an airport & you will see many more people that look like him than me". He was foolish with his drug offence, but accepted his punishment like a man, came back reformed, better, stronger & more committed & we know where it ended. Never shirked his responsibility as a racer for club or country & was an excellent servant for all his clubs & his country, many times as an inspirational captain. I would suggest he was a worthy world champion & carried his title with dignity & as a great ambassador at a time when the sport (like now) was struggling. Very good? A world champion? Oh, OK. Do you have any idea how few people actually reach the pinnacle of their chosen sport/profession, compared to how many try it? Any sportsperson that becomes a world champion is part of an elite group, whether you rate them or not. It is an incredible achievement that only a few can match. Even Muller & Szczakiel deserve absolute respect as perhaps the two speedway world champions who rate lowest in many fans view, but the reality is they still had to deliver when it mattered. Would you rate Kelly & Shawn Moran, Todd Wiltshire, Tommy Knudsen, Zenon Plech & Leigh Adams, as just "very good". I would argue they were great riders, yet between them they didn't win a single world title. There are dozens more riders who were great racers, but couldn't quite reach the very top. In the early 90's Havelock was one of the best around, proven by his world title win. And I'm assuming your describing Woffinden as a legend is tongue in cheek. Long way to go before he can assume that status.

Yes. But they are Polish.

Agree. Very dangerous rider.

As I said in my post, there is an improvement. However, most tracks are restricted in when they can run. Any track near any kind of residential area will have the NIMBY's saying that they hate the noise & it scares their chickens or something. At Somerset, one lady even said that she had the shale coming down her chimney & she was almost a mile away. Planning for a new track at Haldon Racecourse near Exeter was halted first by the firefighters recuperation home almost 2 miles away saying it would blight recovery of firefighters & then some lesser spotted reed warbler or something would have it's nest disturbed & that kicked up a fuss. Sadly it isn't as straightforward as you think getting time on track - may tracks only have planning for use once a week - what help is that?

And Australia did what exactly? At least England got to to the final, which is more than the Aussies did. The Aussies race KL as often as the English lads, so no home track advantage. You need to understand the differences between what has happened here & abroad. In Denmark, Sweden, Poland & Australia, for example, the tracks are pretty much exclusively owned by the clubs & there aren't the do gooders there that there are here bleating about noise etc. The track problem is a historic one. Back in speedway's hey-day with massive crowds & lots of tracks, speedway promoters piggy backed tracks off greyhound, rugby & football stadia & paid rent. They creamed off huge profits & made loads of money & didn't reinvest in the infrastructure of the sport by building their own stadiums at a time when it would have been easier to do so as planning restrictions were looser. Essentially some of the problems of today, stem from greed of promoters when things were good. As time has gone on with planning harder & people moaning about noise etc, it has been more difficult to have facilities for kids to train & learn, although there is some improvement in this. Another issue is the demise of grass track racing. Back in the 70's, 80's & 90's there were big meetings on the grass every 5 minutes & kids learnt the art of racing etc on the grass as there were loads of opportunities. Foot & mouth, which caused loads of issues in the rural UK, planning & noise have seen numbers of meetings fall & less riders as a result. The old style second halves disappearing hasn't helped either. Finally, the obvious problem of money.

Did you not watch the world cup? England pasted the Aussies without our number one. The Poles are light years ahead of everyone as they have the facilities to bring riders on & as the sport is huge over there, there is funding & lots of willing youngsters

I understand what you were replying to. Firstly, the point isn't entirely correct. Mauger had it built into his contract that where necessary he would be flown to Exeter, so that he could fulfil his commitments, there is a huge difference in what you are suggesting. Second, in his five seasons with Exeter, he missed 10 official matches in 1973 - some of those were due to a late start after a delay in his move from Belle Vue & some were through injury. He was unbeaten by an opposition rider at the CG in all official matches all season. In 1974 he missed 3 official matches as Exeter won the league title for the first time in their history. In 1975 & 1976 he missed 5 official matches. In 1977 he missed 8, some of which were through injury. Further, less than a handful were because of LT commitments as clubs were not granted a facility in that instance. His absences were comparable with other top stars of his era, including some top Brits. Research it if you doubt me. During his time at Exeter, he transformed Exeter from being also rans to league champions inside two seasons, won the world championship as an Exeter rider & during his time with the club, apart from his first season, the Falcons finished in the top 3 every year until he left after the 1977 season. Had White City not been allowed to use RR for the retired Dag Lovaas all season, he would have finished his career in Devon lifting another league championship trophy for the club. Exeter was transformed as a force by his arrival & became attractive visitors everywhere thereafter. In addition, he contributed massively off the track in many ways, not least what he taught Scott Autrey, turning him from raw teenage BL rookie, into one of the best Exeter riders ever, but also in terms of how the club was presented, what riders were signed, pairings on track & so, so much more. Mauger's contribution to the cause of Exeter Speedway during his years there is almost immeasurable. The date he signed his contract on Easter Monday 1973 saw around 13,000 people at the CG & he wasn't even racing! Sorry, but to say he didn't prioritise his club commitments whilst at Exeter, on the basis that he asked to be flown to meetings is simply not accurate. The point is, he was prioritising his commitments as he wanted to make sure he was present. You need to check your facts & look at the bigger picture of Mauger's time at Exeter. No rider in history has had the positive impact on the clubs that he has joined as Mauger. Ever. If he had "selfish" or demanding clauses written into his contracts, I would wager the promoters he raced for agreed to them gladly, he was so much more than what he did on the track. Shame we don't have someone like him today. Please don't think I am tub thumping as a Mauger fan, nothing could be further from the truth, I was a PC fan, so read into it what you will about my opinion of Ivan, but the point you make is wrong.

Or not. Eastern Europeans may do, no others do. They come here. Indeed. Cock. Yes, but he did ride, didn't he? And he was only the greatest rider of all time. I think he may have been able to set some conditions on his contract don't you?

They did indeed & also appeared at Wembley for the World Final in 1975, although Vladimir didn't get a ride. I saw them both at Exeter in 1976.

Amen He did. Good old rider control. Allocated to Hull & refused to go. Said he would retire if he didn't get a move to Coventry, which of course, he did. Two good things came of this:- 1) Rider control was abolished & 2) Barry Briggs stayed in the BL to race for Hull instead of retiring. Rider control was nuts - Wayne Briggs was racing for Glasgow in the early 70's & lived in Scotland - he was allocated to, wait for it, Exeter, so retired.

Yes, but it's very different. How many riders get a chance in Poland if they have no pedigree? None. Riders come to the UK, get a good grounding in a competitive situation & then once it suits them, they leave. Even Woffinden did it. The point is, if they are contracted here, they should ride & Jack Holder should be suspended as he should be riding in the fours. As he isn't, he is withholding his services. The Polish league invests nothing in these riders until they are proven. These riders are using the UK, until it doesn't suit them to race here. Let's hope so. All those sticking up for what Holder & Batchelor did, need to look at themselves. They are not "poor victimised speedway riders".

On the basis of only including riders that rode during my years watching (1975 onwards), in no particular order:- Woffinden PC Lee Loram Carter Jessup John Louis Gary Havelock Ray Wilson Chris Morton

Three best:- 1. The day I came back from a holiday to learn that PC had become world champion. I was 9. He was my first hero. 2. Havvy winning the world title in 1992 & I was there to see it. He was my latter day hero 3. My beloved Exeter winning the PL title at Workington in 2000 Three worst:- 1. Witnessing Tony Sanford losing his life at Exeter. It happened right in front of where I used to stand 2. Exeter speedway closing down 3. Any rider losing his life as a result of a track crash

If the criteria is the riders that entertained you most on track, during my time watching the sport, from 1975 onwards, the ten riders that I feel have entertained me the most are:- PC Andrew Silver Mark Loram Vaclav Verner Richard Green Joe Screen Tomasz Gollob Chris Harris Nicki Pedersen Jason Crump

This is an interesting one, always love this kind of debate. Difficult to argue with those selected in the original post from my POV, I guess you could argue a case for the order of some. For me, the only major change (no pun intended) would be Ivan as top in the 70's & I can't really see how one could argue against him being the greatest ever with any real justification. Steve's response in post #7 is very much how I feel. Never mind the 6 world titles & how/where he won them, but leading Britain until he was discarded, then coaxing an average NZ squad to win the WTC, turning Belle Vue into multiple champions & unfashionable Exeter from chumps to champs in two seasons with no other stars in the side. Almost did the same with Hull. Also the best team rider ever, period. He had everything from top to toe, skill & ability, stamina, professionalism, organisation, machinery, an unbelievable work ethic, desire & will to win. He had it & did it all. He put the P in professional when it comes to speedway. There were none like him before, none since & likely none ever again. I grew up & cut my teeth at Exeter, so you could argue I favour him, but he was my least favourite rider, I was a PC fan, but you simply cannot argue with what Ivan achieved.

He did. Thanks, the sands of time.... I suspect that you have the advantage of having searched through records, where most were relying on memories, some of which have several years to chug through, like mine!

In '84 it could have been Louis Carr. I used to have all the programmes but don't have them now. I might look at my speedway stars to see who it was. Carr rode at 2 for us in a short spell that year & beat no less than Hans Nielsen on his debut! Ashby & Kilby were just before my time, but friends sat that Kilb in particular was an expert at the CG, whilst Crash had his best season ever when he joined the Falcons under the old rider control system, even though I don't think he liked it there very much! Holden was never a star at Exeter, but seemed to be destined for great things in 1977 until he died so tragically, so we will never know. Farrell was a real racer, but injuries held him back & he fell away after he left Exeter whilst Robert Maxfield was a real favourite with Exeter fans.

It was a great place to watch speedway, so fast, as you say. Yes, in '84 both Exeter & Newcastle stepped back up to the top flight & both struggled to put teams together so Peter Oakes sought special permission to use Ivan at home only. Amazing at 45 he still posted an average over 8, having not ridden regularly for a few years. With the greatest of respect to Malc, many better riders than he struggled at the County Ground - or used to not turn up - as you say Simmo was one who never felt happy there, but there were many others. As I may have mentioned on other threads, the track just needed to be attacked, rather than ridden & many, many riders excelled there & loved the place, even some of those not quite so accomplished. I think Scott Autrey rode the track as well as anyone I have seen, but watching Vaclav Verner, Richard Green & mark Loram there in full flow having missed the start was awesome. The best visiting rider I think I saw there was Phil Crump. Even when Ivan & Scott were at their peak at Exeter, he would often romp to a full house in totally untroubled fashion. I have so many memories of a great race track over the 25 years I watched there, I could probably fill a whole series of books. Happy days.

The riders referred to were legion, weren't they? I grew up watching speedway at Exeter & in the 70's & we had an awful lot of unknown continentals in particular, as well as some others. Huge successes were - of course - Scott Autrey. Came over as a kid in '73 & turned into possibly the best Exeter rider ever after Ivan. Vaclav Verner was totally unheralded but WOW! What a find he was. lesser successes were his brother Jan & the other Czechs Ales Dryml & Zdenek Kudrna. Steve Koppe from Aus was another. Less successful were Walter Grubmuller from Austria, lovely guy, but not to BL standard. Later we dropped into the lower tier & in the mid to late 80's we had any number of imports, some decent, some not so. Toni Svab, Andy Boessner were OK. Then we had Henk Steman junior, who was awful, Stefan Deser who was worse. Buddy Robinson came over from the US & was steady, then there was the tragic Leif Wahlmann, who could have been very, very good. Lots of others too.... Oh lordy, I miss Exeter