21st century heathen

It's a shame that you've posted with the tone you have because if asked as an open question it would be perfectly fair and valid to ask why its the case. I'll break the post down to a few bits I'd like to reply to, and hopefully answer the main point for you. Good to hear he's doing well. Congrats young man, keep it up. Here's the main point you're making. In the UK there are very strict laws on employing children or young people. He would be defined as a young person under our laws. A young person is someone 14+ but under school-leavers age. A young person who turns 16 by the end of June can leave school and employment restrictions for those no longer in full time education are very much different. Children and young people cannot work at all in certain high risk jobs (factory/construction/mines etc). Technically a local authority would have the power to issue a by-law protecting children and young people from riding speedway citing health and safety concerns, but both children and young people are allowed to compete in sport though other restrictions do apply. Here is where there's a fair question. I've quickly looked up the information in this paragraph and found the following on the CAB website. Children and young people under school leaving age (England and Wales only) There are strict limits to the hours children and young people under school leaving age (see under heading General rules on employment) are allowed to work. You must not work:- during school hours on any school day for more than two hours on any school day or for more than 12 hours in any week in which you are required to go to school for more than two hours on a Sunday for more than eight hours (five hours if you are under 15) on any day which is not a school day or a Sunday before 7am or after 7pm for more than 35 hours (25 if you are under the age of 15) in any week in which you are not required to go to school for more than four hours in any day without a break of one hour at any time, if during the 12 months beginning 1 January, working means that you have not had two uninterrupted weeks of holiday from school. So the question is what if any other law/rule supersedes this to allow 15 and some 16 year old young people to ride the majority of the speedway meetings, which take place in the evening? Big mistake. He should take every opportunity to race as much as possible on as wide a variety of tracks as possible. There are likely to be a number of very big differences between the UK tracks and those he's riding in mainland Europe. I thought you weren't trying to disrespect other riders? Terrible comment to make. As mentioned Auty, Woffinden, Haines and the like of Heeps, Stoneman and Clegg all had to wait despite being very very promising at a tender age. There are one or two others that will have to wait until next year of the year after if they continue their progress. He'll need a British passport, I believe, to be able to race in the NL given the current 'no foreigners' rule for the NL. There's nothing to stop him riding PL and/or EL when the time is right no matter what his nationality.

I don't know anything about Tom so this may be a foolish comment, but I rather suspect he is going to be in for a tough night with two very strong teams putting out good riders in each race. -------------------------------- I'm really looking forward to this meeting tonight. Mildenhall have put together a very good team, and straight from the off they have two potential heat winners in Heeps and Jacobs in heat one. The middle order is solid and in Stoneman they have an exciting young reserve. The track shape and size should hold no fears for the visitors. And who could forget that stunning Monmore debut by Heeps last season? 20 points from seven rides, only a stunning effort by Perry denied him an incredible full maximum after a monumental 4 lap scrap between the two. We're only looking for a 46-44 win to take the silverware but just have a funny felling that facing the league leaders might expose a few cracks if our boys are anything but at their absolute best.

Phew, grateful to tune in and see we grabbed it in the end. Heartbreaking for the home fans and I can feel sorry for you even though I'm delighted to get the points on the board. A lot has been made of our result last week at home but it's not something we should be getting cocky about. The boys all clicked on the same night and we caught a side not so good on the smaller tracks on a good night (from our point of view). But on the balance of the season so far there are one or two areas of consistency that need to be improved on before anyone should start to look at us as favourites for anything. It's very early season, and we (Heathens fans) saw how quickly a promising season can fall apart last year so I doubt anyone is counting any chickens yet. -------------------------------- As for the more general comments about the league this season - I've said since day one that I fancy Mildenhall and Scunny as the top two with Stoke and the Heathens 3rd and 4th. If any of these clubs has a bad run, whether it's unfortunate injuries to key riders or just unexpected poor form from one or two key riders, then I would keep an eye on Rye as possible's to sneak in to the top four. And as for the moans about a certain current Heathen...well it's all getting a little bit silly now. We signed a team of riders within the rules, under the points limit and (except Tom as our asset) I assume were available to any other club should the parent club not have wanted them (presumably not as we signed them) and the rider been interested in signing for other clubs. Said rider is 'only' averaging 10½ from all meetings at NL level so far this season anyway so he's hardly taken the league by storm and been unbeatable. And he's not an EL rider, he's a PL rider. He uses current regulations to get a few extra meetings at a higher and lower level because he wants and needs to be racing as much as possible. He's the most naturally gifted of his age group in my opinion but has been held back by countless injuries. I wish him every success this season and beyond, whichever team he chooses to race far.

Have a day off. In 2010 we finished top of the league but only on points scored difference, then got ommered when it mattered most. Last year frankly ended pretty embarrassingly for us, although in the midst of depression we picked up the Fours. If that record is going to "kill off the national league" then there are other clubs that should be in your firing line way ahead of us.

It is expensive, but those that buy them do so knowing that in some small way they're helping Dan. The lad has been working three jobs to get back in to speedway and has just one bike. With comments like that it might be you getting booed. *shudders at the thought of being linked with the dogheads* From a neutral point of view I guess the sense of inevitability could have got boring, but for such a one-sided meeting there was a fair smattering of good races. Darryl was superb and came from last to secure a 5-1 in three of his rides and from third to second in another I think. Dan made up places from the back. Ash was largely comfortable but needed a couple of smart first turns. James was good value and involved in a couple of reasonably close races. 'Boris' went forwards and backwards in just about every heat I think. As a couple of others have said give it another chance. We've seen some superb meetings when teams have been closely matched. Next week should be a really good meeting. Off the top of my head I think we got 6+2 from his rides. I don't think anyone could have beaten 'Fred' last night, all things being equal, so we could have scored 70!! 99.9% of the time I'm so pleased the Forum is Phil's baby, but everyone now and again I wish I owned it. I could then just ban people for this type of completely unnecessary post. *shakes head in disappointment* Was it last night's meeting in particular that didn't do it for you or do you mean the whole set up? Agree regarding the NL being a bit of a mish mash. I was actually saying the same thing to someone on the terrace last night. C'est la vie. It serves it's purpose on both sides of this debate. For some clubs it's really all about giving the lads some track time in proper league action, and for others such as ourselves there's a higher purpose and success is important. After the post above directed at you I won't even bother trying to make a defence. I'll just trust you to acknowledge the majority are a good bunch. Surprisingly it was quite entertaining considering the scoreline. The fans will turn up every time someone puts a Heathens race jacket on. We went through a spell of being thrashed out of sight even on our own shale last season. Anything between 10 and 30 point defeats felt like they'd become the norm, but we still had crowds over a thousand. Not true. From all meetings Royno has averaged about 10½ and been beaten a few times, including at home by Richie Worrall in our very first home meeting. Nonsense. All the NL clubs know what their objective is and operate accordingly. And before slating us consider that we are bringing on riders too. Tom (18) and Darryl (17) have been given their chance by the Heathens. Ash already had a year before we started but he's in his third season with us and has only just turned 18. Dan has been given a way back in to the sport by getting a place with us this season having been very promising as a junior I believe, before personal problems forced him out of speedway for a few years. Royno is with us because the rules allow it and he wants to be there. Any NL club could have approached him (with permission of course) about riding for them last season and this. He wants and needs as many meetings as he get after so much time on the sidelines year after year. Going out and winning races without too much pressure is clearly giving him a big confidence boost. If you consider the big picture then surely you must see this is good for British Speedway? He, and perhaps Richie Worrall in a few years time based on current rate of improvement, is one of too few that could go on to ride at a higher level. If not for the injuries he'd have been knocking on the door of a SWC place by now. If a year (and a bit last season) helps him get there then... Royno has been a terrific captain to our younger and less experienced riders too. Only three meetings in a row. He was beaten at Buxton earlier this month. In fact he didn't even top score that day, Perry did.

Oops, my apologies. You're quite right. I had their averages back-to-front in my head. Give it 'Boris' then and similarly hope to get off to a flyer.

I'm really happy for 'Fred' to get his big chance to impress tonight. I have everything crossed he can shine and perhaps even alert a few sponsors to the natural talent he has for racing bikes. I note he had a few bike problems in the U21's at the weekend though, so hopefully whatever it was is all sorted out. It's going to be tougher without him and almost certainly a little less entertaining, but with Cockle missing it does even up the loss. I would expect us to take all the points, though that's not to suggest it will be a walk-over. The Young Stars have a few riders capable of producing a shock so we'll need all our boys to be sharp. The last thing we need is another slow start and to be chasing the points. I'll take a steady performance with everyone chipping in to something like a comfortable but competitive 50-40. I think our key riders at the moment are Darryl, who just doesn't seem to be able to get going, and 'Boris' who just doesn't seem to be able to get through a meeting without a fall/crash. If these two effectively make the difference tonight I'll be a happy Heathen. *edit* greyhoundp - R/R at 2. JWW moves to 4. I'd like to see Ash take r/r in heat 1. Nothing should be taken for granted but on paper you'd fancy us to get off to a good start to the meeting, which is something that doesn't always happen!

C'mon guys let's give this a bit of context. A rider got booed a bit by a few away fans because in the heat of the moment they thought he'd got the race stopped because our boys were out front. This happens at every track every week where a similar situation arises. Did anyone hear the jeers directed at the Brummies riders that came off last Monday night at Belle Vue. Even Barker was booed/jeered and he was a completely innocent victim in what could have been a nasty crash for him. I can't imagine he's upset by it and if he is tell him to have a word with Jason Garrity. After some of his antics he gets the panto villain treatment at Monmore 'Wood'. He embraces it and plays up to the role and just has a laugh enjoying the banter. If any rider can't handle a few boos in this scenario then heaven help him if he ever faces the wrath of a large Polish crowd. Nicki Pedersen gets booed by thousands at Cardiff but he just laughs it off. The Heathens fans are used to being vocal in support of our own riders and a light-hearted pop at the opposition. It's all the fun of the fair and we always applaud opposition race winners, and the team should they beat us. We took some right ommerings at home last season but everybody stuck around for the victory parade to congratulate the winners. The only time we've not is back in the good ol' days when racing against Wolves. We used to boo them just for having the audacity to turn up!! I'm not for one minute suggesting every Heathens fan is a little angel, there are some numpties that make daft comments at every track.

I think you've misunderstood, as it may not have been clear. There was a comment that a few clubs have expressed in interest in Stoneman. My point was that if Mr Pearson ever contacted him that Nathan would be the one to think about it before he said no to the Heathens, not the other way around. I must admit though that it was Max Clegg that I said as long ago as last season that I'd have liked to have seen turn out for us. And while we're talking about the youngsters I'd love to see Nathan Greaves in a Heathens race jacket next season. Wonder who that might be? Again, I hope I've not been misleading. I would never suggest such an approach. I would lose a lot of respect for my club if ever it made such an approach to any rider.

Yes, no argument there. Emotions are very raw this week too. Heathens fans are no stranger to seeing riders suffer serious injury and don't forget we lost one of our own back in the 90's too. I just wanted to make the point that fans, from all clubs, cheer the points being thrown away that's all. It's not the that anyone wants to see someone hurt. In this of all weeks I don't want this to overshadow the meeting and certainly have no desire to get into a long-winded debate or let it descend into a mud-slinging compeition though. Cheers. Should be around a bit more often now. ------------------------------- Can anyone that was there comment on Ritchings? He's not really got going properly, often sluggish out the start and not showing the pace we saw at times last season. Was he there or thereabouts last night or only really worthy of his points total?

I wasn't there so I can't comment directly regarding that but before having a pop at Heathens fans any further can someone state categorically that you could hear a pin drop and none of the KL fans cheered when our 5 fallers came off and dropped points? I stress the latter part of this because as has been said many many times people cheer the lost points NOT because any of us want to see people get hurt. ---------------------------------------------- This looks like a missed opportunity for KL to get one over on us. Following on Updates it's looks that we got off to our typical slow start, threw on a few falls (notably a potential 1-5 turned into a 5-0 in heat 2), lost a rider to injury and it took a late rally for us to grab the win but not quite all the points. This has been something of a trend for far too long now. We often nick something but don't take the maximum points due to a slow start in some way, shape or form. Best wishes to 'Boris'. He's taken a righty ol' battering at the start of this season with a string of falls/crashes. Hopefully there's still no serious damage done and he'll feeling better soon. Congrats Royno on another maximum. It's easy for some to say he's too good for this league etc but he still has to go out there and win races, nothing is handed to him on a plate. Ironically, he's under more pressure in this league because he's expected to go out and hardly ever drop points even though there are some very capable riders in this league that could easily beat him if he's not on it every time he lines up. Good to see Ash appears to have blown away the cobwebs after some sluggish performances in the very early stages of the season. He's going to be very important to us with the number 5 on his back. Often paired with a reserve or against the big boys he's got to be firing. Solid score by 'Fred' but sounds as though he was a touch off the very best we've seen from him a couple of times already this season. Solid by Danny but can't afford to throw too many away with any silly falls (throw away comment as I didn't actually see what happened last night). I'm a little disappointed James didn't score a bit better as he's had a few cracking performances this season. I guess, as with most number 2's, he's likely to show this sort of inconsistency. The biggest let down (poor choice of words really) so far this season has been Darryl. He's really struggling to get going. When, not if , he starts banging in the points we're going to look a really solid unit. Well done on the start to the season so far lads. Onwards and upwards. Ommer um.

Only on this forum could a positive topic about a promising young Brit descend into a petty argument so quickly. Bradford won the league with 7 Brits and closed the next year!! I saw Nathan ride at Monmore 'Wood' last season and he was a little over-optimtistic a few times () but you could see the lad's clearly got some natural ability. If some bloke named Pearson ever calls him I hope he gives the proposition some serious consideration before he says no thanks.

Some reserves have 3 rides, some have 7 rides. Sometimes riders get injured. Sorry, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make regarding these two factors.

There's no need for a dramatic re-think on the entire meeting format for reserves to have an extra race. Everything up to and including heat 14 stays exactly the same, heat 15 becomes a second reserve race and heat 16 is the nominated heat. It's that easy. The only problem being that when I recently posted a few questions in poll format on here 47.73% of votes were against having a second race for reserves only. We have fans, managers and riders posting in here so it could have been any combination posting, but I found that a very disappointing result. The question was related to the number of teams in the league but I added an option that this should be done regardless of the number of teams in the league this season. Only 27.27% thought an extra race for reserves should be added regardless of the number of teams, the balance of 25% voted yes to an extra race if there are only 8 teams. I realise that even one race extra would raise costs, but surely not that much? If it's fans voting no to an extra race then I'm really confused. Perhaps the alternative is that we keep the format as it is but reserves have to take their four programmed rides unless ruled out by an injury suffered during the meeting and certified unfit by the doctor? That doesn't address the issue of lesser reserves facing very tough opposition in all but one heat. I would prefer that they get two chances against each other rather than fighting for scraps against heat leaders and second strings. We know half the battle is often confidence so lets give the reserves a boost. I'd still like to see clubs such as the Heathens, that pull in the crowd to support it, put on a second half with the bottom three of the main team and a number 8 (all teams should have a named number 8 in my opinion) involved against similar from the opposition (or invited if need be) in 6 heat format. Curfew's shouldn't be a weekly problem. Currently meetings are often long drawn-out affairs. There's no reason not to get a meeting done comfortably by 9pm, giving an hour for 6 more heats.

The suggestion of a name change for the leagues is not so much for those of us that already follow speedway, it makes no difference to us because we go anyway, so much as it's for marketing purposes in my opinion. A redistribution of the current fan base by clubs moving from one league to another is not an answer the bigger problems the sport faces. The sport desperately needs to tap into the untold thousands that used to go 'back in the day', new fans that know little or nothing about the sport at the moment and to attract more/higher value sponsorship. As I said before, to anyone 'outside' the sport the terms currently used mean nothing really. Aligning our league names to those used in Football is instantly recognisable to most and a simple 1, 2, 3 approach obvious to everyone (I would hope!). The amateur status of the development league can be easily associated by it being known as a Development League rather than it following the football or 1, 2, 3 structure. Of course it's not an overnight fix and all will be fine and dandy by the weekend, but it's a change that's quick, easy, cost free and may lead to more easily 'selling' the sport. The most important bit being that unlike virtually every other suggestion made is that it will cost basically nothing!

With regard to the opening post - Yes, it's disappointing that we have league with so few clubs this season. However, all the indications are that this is a one-off and we will have a bigger league again next season. With that in mind I'm disappointed but I don't weep for NL speedway. There are one or two good points raised. The major one I agree with is raising the profile of the league. Speedway in general needs to revamp itself but the NL in particular has allowed itself to be viewed as something of 6-fingered cousin even within the sports current fan base. If it's viewed as a poor alternative by existing fans then what chance of attracting new fans? The easiest thing in the world would be to re-name the league's so that it's instantly recognisable to anyone you stop on the street. Ask someone in what order to place the EL, PL and NL and they may guess right but would not be certain. We now have 4 recognised leagues so one of two options present themselves. Either follow Football as most people could relate to it. So we would have the Premiership, Championship, Division 1 and the Conference (or Division 2). The alternative would be all change and simply have Division 1 through 4 which is easy to market and instantly obvious to anybody. Something I would oppose is the idea, or anything like it, of giving EL teams another point on the points limit if they run NL. I think that's utterly ridiculous. If the richer EL clubs with more assets decided to do it to get a head start where would it leave the like of BV, Eastbourne, Birmingham and Kings Lynn that have very few options? But perhaps worse than this is that the cost of running in the EL would go up, so the admission would go up (baring in mind most are upping the cost to £17 this season anyway) which would force more fans away from the sport in general and accelerate the downward spiral. Costs are the fundamental stumbling block to any and all ideas to improve things. Where is the money going to come from to implement any ideas we, or indeed the BSPA, come up with? The sport is effectively run by wealthy fans that can afford to write off the losses they make from doing something they love. Very, very few people are making any real money out of speedway in this country. As for getting back to where we, British Speedway, were you can forget it. We still have talented riders but the tables have been turned. When I was born it was pretty much Brits, Danes and Americans dominating world speedway. The Danes are clinging on but the Americans and the Brits have fallen away with Poland and even Russia emerging. With regard to Poland in particular it may have been that in the past they had talented riders but not the money invested in the sport. How times change. If what's been put on the forum in recent times is accurate then a State run energy company is bank-rolling speedway in Poland with Hancock commanding a £100,000 sign-on fee and £1500 a point (even one suggestion it's £1700 if he scores 12 or more). Other riders have recently come out and said they can earn 10 times as much in Poland as in Britain. And it's a similar story in Russia where Ryan Sullivan said he could earn as much doing 8 (I think it was) meetings out there as a whole season here. I would estimate top heat leaders here are on around £150-£200 a point, so the maths fits and it sounds feasible that that is the sort of money been thrown around over there now. That said I did hear on the grape vine a few years ago that a high profile EL heat leader was on a guarantee of £x (no names or numbers as I can't prove either) per meeting, which was a lot by our standards. We simply cannot compete with that and trying to would see British Speedway become little more than a weekend hobby and certainly nothing we would recognise as our current set up. Sad but true to say that in my opinion we simply have to accept our place in world speedway is not what it was. We have no divine right to rule the roost.

I see you edited that post. Is this the 'approved version' of what you actually posted in the first instance? -------------------------- Anywho, this meeting and the Ben Fund look like getting the new season off to a flyer.

And so it begins. Long gone are the days when you could make your own mind up!!

I don't know for a fact if there's anything in that, but I've lived close to Monmore all my life and I can't remember ever having heard of Wolves having problems with the Council or noise issues, certainly not in my adult life. It could be that the Council only gave permission for an additional 16 meetings, but this has never been communicated to the fans. This is the first we're hearing of a relatively low maximum number of meetings. Even when fans have discussed potential moves into the PL or EL it has never been mentioned that this is simply not an option at Monmore. If I have missed something that was mentioned by the club with regard to this I apologise for the oversight. I can't see that Ladbrokes are the 'problem'. It has Wednesday reserved for speedway as Wolves' off-night but it's not used. It would make sense for the stadium to be used as often as possible.

Only fair for me to come back here to acknowledge the response - Only 16 dates available so that is why we're not taking on the Trophy as well. And if we don't progress fair enough in the League and Cup for the fans to get more than 11 meetings then the club will put on at least one more meeting to ensure fans that have bought a season ticket aren't short-changed. I got this from a quick-fire reply on the Cradley Forum by Nigel Pearson himself. In response I've asked if we could not share Wolves' off-night, Wednesday, as it's reserved for speedway but almost never used. I can't remember the last time there was a Wednesday meeting at Monmore. -------------------------------- The doggies run on a Monday, so I fail to see that they interfere with our schedule.

There may have been more than a hint of sarcasm in that line mate. I can't see it happening either. It would be interesting to see what happened if anyone challenged it though. Quite clearly anyone that already has a season ticket has been mis-sold it.

Sorry that this will sound self-centred but my original post was an idea for the Heathens to get extra home meetings. With the crowds we get it can be afforded, and I didn't mean for us to race away at the PL club as well. There would be little point in that really. Even the worst PL team should run away with a big win against the best of the NL on their own shale. At Monmore 'Wood' I think there are teams that we could give a good meeting, and for the like of Tom, Ash and Darryl in particular it will be a good test of where they are now and where they need to get to in the next couple of years. It will also give Roynon extra meetings at that level. -------------------------------------- For speed and ease I'll just copy and paste what I've posted on the Cradley forum this morning. So, the press release is out on the BSPA website. Briefly... 8 teams confirmed. 40 point limit confirmed and will remain in place until at least 2014 (incl). Top 4 into the PO's. New National Trophy competition for clubs that want extra meetings - We are NOT competing. (Bux, IOW, Mil, St) We face Mildenhall to defend the National Shield at the start of the season. We have been drawn against Bux in the 1st round KOC. Pairs @ Mil Fours @ St NLRC @ Rye U21 Semi @ St U21 Final @ Monmore Wood http://www.speedwayg...hp?extend.14311 ------------------------------ What strikes me immediately is that in the press release it states the new Trophy is for some 'stand-alone' clubs that want more meetings. By implication that means the Heathens don't want more meetings. Also it's confirmed on the Dudley Heathens website that this means a minimum of 11 meetings, despite the fact that the website clearly states that the 2012 season ticket is being sold on the basis of a minimum of 12 meetings. Season tickets are rarely good value anyway, and after the way Cov fans got screwed over last season and my general feeling of animosity towards the way the BSPA seems to go about its business most of the time I changed my mind and decided I wouldn't get one this season after originally deciding last year that I would. Looks a good move at face value. It would be nice for the club to make a statement that explains why we've not entered the Trophy and presumably to confirm that those that have already paid for a season ticket will be offered their money back. From the website this morning. 2012 SEASON TICKET PRICES Adults - £120.00 Concessions - £80.00 Children (aged 15 and under) - £25 CLICK HERE to download a 2012 season ticket form. Please note these figures are based on a minimum of 12 home meetings. and Chairman Nigel Pearson said: “Our season ticket holders have a minimum of 11 home meetings where their passes are valid which represents great value.

That's fine by me mate. We finished top a couple of years ago and flopped in the PO's. Visa versa this season will suit me just fine!

Keep it. We've got bigger fish to fry when the league starts!

I've suggested something similar a few times. I think all NL teams should name a number 8, and he should have an average no greater than 3.00. I would give the second half to the 5th member of your top 5 plus the reserves and the number 8. Typically those riders in your main team with be the ones that might get pulled out of a ride in the main meeting, and you will be giving your number 8 regular outings. I would also stipulate that no tactical changes can be made in these heats. Every rider takes his programmed riders unless a rider is ruled out through injury (certified by the doctor). In that case any rider with a lesser average than the injured rider comes in. In the even that it's the number 8 that's injured then only the lowest averaging rider can replace him. This differs just slightly from what you've suggested as I don't necessarily think the lowest scorer on the night is someone that really needs extra rides. It could be a vastly experienced rider that's just had one of 'those' nights. I would rather someone starting out on a 3-point average gets a couple of rides. You could even, in a few cases, see a rider deliberately throw his last ride in the main meeting to get himself into the second half to gain another couple of rides.