Joe Beevers

Someone who knows the rules inside out which makes the theories of Pythagoras look easy. I would also say knowing a riders mental strengths and weaknesses is pretty key. There is a huge list as well that most fans probably do not think off.

I like the fact that the name has been rebranded and the leagues now offer promotion and relegation. This was always going to happen whether it would have been now or in 5 years. Will also be interested to see if the Development League grows enough to have a similar impact matching with the National League but I cannot see the National linking promotion and relegation to the Premier League now it is relating to the Elite. I suppose I better get used to saying the 'Championship' League.

Danny King has already signed for Kings Lynn according to their thread and to be honest, I can understand that as he wants a short journey going between Ipswich in the PL and Kings Lynn in the EL. Kasprzak I think may leave like Harris but you never know.

Not been here for a while but caught up with the thread. Rob, you are indeed correct and I must have read Andy Grahame's rostrum places incorrectly and he gets entered into the line up and Neil Evitts goes to reserve. This fantasy meeting would have been held at Brandon but me and Norbold were comparing the most excitable riders of all time from the UK to race around Hyde Road. As these threads seem to be interesting and reasonably commented on, I will be doing a few more in the future but in regards to this one, I won't be putting out any stat results as it turns into an era bashing for the poor 90s who had some great riders. It was odd. They could have held an ACU Championship for just those riders instead of taking the places of the British riders. What about the South African riders?

All riders at their peak would have been outstanding and more lines would have been created than a naughty child's detention blackbord essay. Tempted to swap Chris Morton for Carter at his peak and move the track to Hyde Road rather than Brandon. Mckinlay never won it but I can't help feeling sorry for all the British riders who had to ride against the impeccable Mauger and Briggs because they officially would have won a British Final had this odd rule not allowed this. I could not imagine the uproar on this forum if it had happened today with Jason Doyle and Chris Holder riding in a British Final. Still, it's the same feeling I have as modern riders winning a GP but had they been born 20 years earlier they would have had a World Title to their name so it swings and roundabouts.

May have to do a seperate thread to represent the riders for before the official British Finals which began in 1961 as there is so much quality probably in both lineups, so definitely the Jack Parkers deserve a separate mention. Yes Neil Evitts was an interesting one and suprised how good he was in the mid 80s for a reasonable space of time. He attained a first and a second in Finals which beats John Louis's first and third and both had a reasonably high World Final finishing place. Ray Wilson grabs the last spot with one title although Andy Grahame and Steve Bastable count themselves unfortunate to just miss out. Apart from young master Woffinden, I would certainly agree. Without him and I see a huge quality gap but hopefully a new breed can come along and maybe make more in roads. Robert Lambert has reasonable potential to make it far but a lot more riders are needed.

So the same rules apply and this is based on amount of British Finals won and than the criteria is than most seconds, thirds and World Final positions etc. This group of riders have an impressive 6 world titles and 30 British Final wins but who would have podiumed as masters at British Finals only. And also the rider must be not riding today. The line up: 1) Joe Screen 2) Peter Collins 3) Simon Wigg 4) Peter Craven 5) Chris Louis 6) Eric Boocock 7) Malcolm Simmons 8) Kenny Carter 9) Kelvin Tatum 10) David Jessup 11) Gary Havelock 12) Chris Morton 13) Andy Smith 14) Michael Lee 15) Andy Grahame 16) Mark Loram 17) John Louis ® 18) Neil Evitts ® Quite the frightening line up that just shows how many great speedway riders our tiny nation has produced.

Hence not a long term injury meaning only R/R should have been used and not a replacement.

[quote name="Glennylion" post="2872262" timestamp="1478090712" 4 things that impact and would become less attractive due to going EL I would say though are increase in price, quality of team, frequency of meetings and lack if association with home riders. 1) Price - Nothing can be done about this. In fact I can see it only going higher due to inflation due to riders needing more coatlier technology improvements and probable rise in methanol etc and with ever decreasing speedway sponsorship for riders and teams in the country. 2) Quality of team - Again see Number 1. Lack of funds from all areas of turnover for clubs so they cannot afford better paid riders. If more people came through the door for just a night out for something to do or had more passionate followers like Polish speedway or this country in in the 60s/70s we wouldn't be in this mess. 3) Frequency of meetings - Totally agree. The GP in many ways has been bad for British Speedway and it use to be the weather was problematic enough. Something has to give and it will probably be stadium race nights. 4) I would say this is a minor issue. Personally I think it is more of an issue that riders personalities and characters don't shine through enough on the track. Riders need to give a little more back by really entertaining or giving autographs to fans at intervals. More passion although wheelies is better than nothing.

Well that is fine if you understand the mockery of these averages is common. I don't think Ellis is over a 5.5 average in my opinion. What would be interesting is what would Ellis average be if he doubled up with Lakeside if they went Premier League and Poole in the Elite. To be honest, I think the sport has more to be worry about than Adam Ellis on a 3 average but I think a 4 is sensible. Was your 5.6 average etc with British reduction or have I missed that rule being scrapped as well.

So Danny King has signed. I had a feeling this team was going to change the most on paper. Wouldn't be surprised if Robert Lambert was last man standing from this year. I also feel sorry for Niels. If he wants to ride five leagues or whatever and earn a lot of money, what right does a national league have to say no you can't. It is disgusting.

I never questioned the legitimacy of injury. I questioned the length of time it takes to heal to use a replacement for a long term injury that is in the rules. Basically he should have been R/R if he could ride in Poland when Poole were still riding. It's in the rules.

Says who? You decide the averages do you you? A mockery? This sport has been a mockery for years with false starting averages that probably stems back to the actual team you support signing World No 2 Tomasz Gollob on a 7.50 when he was a 9.50 average rider which already had world class riders in like Tony Rickardsson, Chris Louis and Scott Nicholls in. Alright for one but not the other I suppose. There is a rulebook I believe.

I put Ray Wilson down in my title winners thread at No 18 but for some reason the topic I did yesterday has not appeared. I am not sure where Reg Wilson has come from, as he never podiumed a British Final nor won one.

Do you always speak and act aggressive towards woman after speaking to lisa-colette in that way. I think I know your type. For the record I don't support Poole and was glad they didn't win the league due to the Hans Andersen shenanigans. If you read any post of mine, they are neutral and actually and like the underdog to win. You clearly don't like Poole or me for some reason and please explain who I suck up too because it maybe more worth a read than any of your so called debating skills on speedway matters, thats for sure.

As I stated, I think if everyone does a line up or finishing order its easier to compare. I would appreciate also if the posts in thw thread were read before quick comments passed but I will defend my list this time Firstly I agree Marvyn Cox was probably a better rider than Barker and Hurry but not on British Final stats and weakness of fields per year is everyone's opinion of course. So Barkers 2nd and 3rd and Hurrys 2nd and 3rd eclipse anything Cox has done in a British Final although on the World Level he has done more. It for me is who has done best at British Finals as a first criteria. I have already explained Kennetts omission. Terry Betts is a fair point and would have probably placed above Barker at peak but he is already ahead of Hurry? The problem is its harder to define a stronger era as anyone could argue the strongest era because usually it is what era you grew up in and nobody budges, so this is done on fantasy stats. I disagree with Dugard not being second. Firstly his B.F results are better than anyone elses except Boocock and he had just as competitive field when he competed such as Havelock and Loram who were World Champions and riders like Smith, Louis,Tatum,Doncaster, Screen, Cox and Thorp who had made World Finals. Secondly and the most valid point is he was the only rider in the field to have won a GP which in the old days equates to a World Final win beating riders like Rickardsson, Gollob, Crump and Nielsen I think plus the fact he was a top rider for a while. Like I said before this is stat based. Reg Wilson? Didn't he win a final so he is not a nearly man.

Ok based on statistics mainly from a combination of British Finals and than World Finals with riders at their prime, this is how I think the results may have looked: 1) Nigel Boocock 13 (after a run off) 2) Martin Dugard 13 3) Ken McKinlay 12 4=) Jeremy Doncaster 11 4=) Ron How 11 6=) Doug Wyer 9 6=) Alan Grahame 9 6=) David Norris 9 9) Phil Collins 8 10=) Simon Cross 7 10=) Les Collins 7 12=) Carl Stonehewer 6 12=) John Davis 6 14) Dean Barker 4 15) Terry Betts 3 16) Paul Hurry 2

I already did a thread like this about two weeks ago called The Most Wanted List. Peter Kildemand is an interesting one as not sure what average he would come into the league on.

Superb commentator and condolences to his family and friends.

Ron How will be entered into the top 16 and Colin Pratt moves to reserve. I actually agree in some ways on the strength but I think more of a deciding factor as well which I have thought about is that How and Trigg would have both won British Titles had the Antipodeans not been there so technically they are British Champions. That also adds further debate because this list is not for British Champions but for the nearly men. But as the records state it is technically a third and would that mean now that both Trigg and Tony Lomas should come in above Carl Stonehewer who rode 2 or 3 world finals and Les Collins who is next in line. So do I rate Trigg and Lomas as better than Stonehewer and Collins just because of several posters opinions on what decade was stronger. This is purely a fictional statistical lineup. I am not sure why you are debating Mckinlay and Boocock as they are already in the lineup and I fully agree they should be there. To be honest, I am not biased against the 60s but I thought that post was because I didn't mention Steve Schofield who also picked up a third but due to poor other B.F and W.C results does not make the list above even though I think he may have been a World Grasstrack or Longtrack champion. I would appreciate if a few others did a list and than democracy would make a new list that we would all agree on.

I thought about putting Gordon in but his results in British Finals have been strangely poor. Mind you his second in the one off World Final eclipses Paul Thorps and Marvyn Coxs W.F results but they had better British Final positions on the whole. It's a very difficult list to do but always happy to see your opinion. Each to their own but quite a slightly biased view on the riders in the 60s being better than the rest. Basically this list is riders on individual British Final achievements and stats as my historical knowledge does not go as far back as yours so you have the advantage on me. I shall explain my theory on these two riders. Riders with one third place in a British Final: Colin Pratt Carl Stonehewer Roy Trigg Ron Howe Basically Colin Pratt and Carl Stonehewer qualified due to the fact they made a World Final/GP so that gives them extra points. Now Les Collins did not get a 3rd but got 2 4th place finishes that with my working out would equal a 3rd place finish which i.m.o sounds fair. Also Les has a 3rd place in a World Final unlike Trigg. Unfortunately I can not find any World Finals Ron How has been in but please correct me if I am wrong. So they could probably both be at reserve although Thorp and Cox both had a fourth in the B.F and but as they made World Finals and finished in the top half of World Finals, I considered them the overall better riders but I am happy to exchange them or Colin Pratt if How made a World Final and had a performance that was superior to the riders above. All the other riders in the list got a second or multiple rostrums.

And people complain about Poole's gamesmanship. Mauger and Nielsen were excellent riders but they would do anything to gain an advantage whether it was right or wrong. Very interesting topic though and do not recall it.

Similar to the thread I started a few months ago in regards to the best riders to have never won the World Championship, I decided to do one for the British Final. Found this difficult to do as most of the early years of British Finals were won by the Antipodeans such as Briggs and Mauger so some were unfortunately not to get in but this British Final is based on a criteria of riders who have retired from speedway and have never won but been close or taken part in many. Here is the list: 1) Doug Wyer 2) Simon Cross 3) Paul Hurry 4) John Davis 5) Dean Barker 6) Nigel Boocock 7) Carl Stonehewer 8) Alan Grahame 9) Les Collins 10) Ron How 11) David Norris 12) Terry Betts 13) Jeremy Doncaster 14) Ken McKinlay 15) Martin Dugard 16) Phil Collins 17) Roy Trigg - Reserve 18) Colin Pratt - Reserve All these riders have rostrumed either once or multiple times without winning except for Les Collins who gets through with two 4ths and a W.C rostrum and the two reserves who also did not rostrum but have made World Finals/GPS to be considered. May make changes though but a good strong lineup and will put a result down laterbin the thread perhaps.

Except for perhaps Poole and Belle Vue who probably won't be getting rid of Holder, Andersen, Zagar or Cook unless rules elsewhere dictate so.

Congratulations to Birmingham on their National League title and they fully deserve it.