sparkafag

Other than the tactical rule what changes would you make to the rules? What specific rules and what specific changes?

I think it is completely underplayed how good they are. They are oft critiqued because they shout WHOOOO as two riders look like they have clipped and are about to be catapulted into the fence, I find it staggering they should WHOOO and not “f*cken hell”. As a pair they bounce of each other, they rarely bury each other or the product, if there is a pressing matter they will touch on it and generally dissect races and incidents very well. As a pair they present the sport in a very good light.

Holder spent two seasons in the PL, the first he averaged over 8 the second he averaged over 10, it was obvious to anyone with a hole in their arse he was a special talent from the moment they saw him race. He also finished 5th and 2nd in the Under 21s while he was in the PL. The reputation of the Holders is that they are seemingly cash rich so it is little to do with the need to earn a crust rather than a genuine talent on a motorbike, the whole being a World Champion thing confirms that…. Ward was arguably better than Holder on arrival, averaging over 9 in his debut PL season and actually wining the Under 21 Championship that same year, if that is achievable on the back of a seasons PL experience you have to scratch your head and wonder why a few more Brits haven’t achieved it more often… I would say it is because racing PL speedway didn’t “make” either of those riders they were brilliant before they arrived. Australian riders in general are far more complete from an earlier age than the majority of Brits with very few Brits actually seeming to be “special” from a very young age, arguably none for about 20 years who are actually “home nurtured”, the closest being riders like Kennet and Bridger who didn’t achieve the same level of dominance/obvious talent the likes of Holder or Ward did or had from first viewing. It seems to me British riders have to fight and scratch to become good, eg Harris and Richardson rather than being placed on a path that leads to an end result...based on volume in recent years it appears Australia are far better at that. The depth in talent between Team GB and Australia is pretty big when considering the setup in GB (and that is before even considering the injury to Ward and that Woffinden feasibly could have picked Australia over Team GB) , to me it seems little to do with league structure rather than a far more advanced training ground in Australia, if the scale of good Australian riders to poor is 1 in 10, GB is about 1 in 50.

Yeah it's definatley not clingy to count posts and crow about advanced searches..... Don't blame me for your inability to interpret and read things brains

Like a dog with a bone....a stupid dog

I don’t think the issue is necessarily re how many foreign riders are currently in team places in British Speedway. As it stands there has never been a better chance for a Brit to be employed in a team, the ones that aren’t generally won’t be entering the conversation re Woffindens subject matter, so I don’t think it is “team place” related personally. I would also question whether or not the PL is where riders “develop” as such, yes it is another step in their progression but the majority of riders who have progressed through the PL and went on to big things were quite developed by the time they ever reached PL Speedway, they were very good from a very young age. A decent case being Lambert and Woffinden it was accepted both would go on to bigger things and it was blatantly obvious from the first lap seeing them, just as it was Ward, Holder even riders like Batchelor to a lesser extent. The riders who have “developed” in the PL generally have a pretty low ceiling IMO, Doyle apart, he is the general exception to the rule. Britain’s biggest problem seems to be development from first getting on a bike to PL place, it is there where other countries are far advanced to Britain rather than the “PL structure” and if anything Team GB confirms that slightly - 3 members Lambert, Woffinden and Ellis all cut their teeth, or enhanced development outside the UK. It is in the early stages of development that “elite”/World Cup/GP riders are created IMO and there is possibly enough to validate that, there are very few home developed British protégés (in recent years) or riders who were earmarked for big things from an early age and delivered.

You do realise there are different answers and different scenarios in different situations and different replies to different posts and points yes? Why would I “bang on about it” I have been asked what side I would pick and in both instances have replied saying I would have picked Nicholls, just referencing him at random and “banging on about it” would be a bit odd…..the post where I said I would have picked Nicholls came earlier in the thread, pages before I said King or Cook shouldn’t have been near the near side, so em yeah, grand job on that

I personally wouldn’t base selection entirely on how riders perform on one track, even if the event is being held there, eg – what were Woffinden’s previous scores there? I appreciate it is slightly different but he had no previous on the track if that was part of any selection criteria. I understand some may not agree with that process re not picking based on one track but I find it a slightly narrow way to look at things, more so when it is a new track where some riders (Harris or King for that matter) have had little chance to build a basis of form on it – one meeting being raced on a rain impacted track, and the other hardly being a score to scream about.

Sure, yeah, that’s what I am saying - word for word that's what I have said....

Not really, I have already said earlier in the thread who I would have picked. I would have probably went with Woffinden, Nicholls, Harris and Lambert. I feel Nicholls and Harris are both capable of scoring more than 5 on the world stage, history suggests this, form on the continent of Nicholls even this season suggests this, both, even during what is seen as “poor form” are outperforming either King or Cook and ticking more boxes IMO and neither King nor Cook really meet any kind of “for the future” criteria any more nor less than either Nicholls or Harris do. I would have picked Lambert but as I said, you could make a case for picking Harris (in the side Rossiter picked) before him based on what Lambert scored, it was a reply to a different post speaking about that particular subject rather than King or Cook If you are that fussed by what I am posting, just read it, you won't need to ask as many questions. (LOL)

The world also means in addition to, i.e I would have had Harris before either of King or Cook based on the idea that scoring 5 would be acceptable for either (the post I was replying to) I then replied to a different point saying you could also (in addition to) have made a case for him being in the side instead of Lambert on the basis of what Lambert scored – thus following up on points re the “spot on” comment. Different points, different discussions….. it's conversation you know, I am evidently not saying it should have been Woffinden and Harris, Harris, Harris, if you are too dense to work that you more fool you (LOL dim LOL, LOL, LOL).

Obviously... Increases there chances though. I see Woffinden felt it should have been gold as well though

If it’s the worst Under 21 in years that means the GP will be a comparable standard in 5/6 years’ time, if Lambert continues on the same trajectory of his colleagues he would be one of the top riders in the world irrespective of the perceived standard of competition.

Mourinho has chucked away winners medals….Rio Ferdinand asked his colleagues during the World Cup coverage if they kept their runners up medals as he hadn’t… The majority of sports competitors generally live in that moment and once a final or season is done they will typically forget it, more so if they haven’t wont.

I have literally said a few times I can see the chicken/egg nature of what I am saying, I don’t think I can be much clearer. I also though don’t think it is out of the question Harris could have outperformed a score of 3 or 5 based on what he has achieved previously in his speedway career, it is possible to think both they things.. And if they had said “Britain could have won” on the basis of a rider scoring 5 points they would have had a pretty valid point irrespective of who the rider was….. I don’t think it is negative to state that re the Cook/Doyle/Lindback dynamic, they (Doyle and Linbback) had poor meetings, it is only stating the obvious to say that, their underperformance doesn’t add to another rider not performing and there poor performances weren’t truly taken advantage off to the extent they should have been IMO, well not by anyone other than Woffinden. Again, I have literally said I would have picked Harris over Cook, I couldn’t make that much clearer (lol – which doesn’t actually make what I just said that funny)….

Slight contradiction in that given Lambert is probably a better rider than Frick was at 18 and currently sits 2nd in the Under 21 standings which would be comparable to just about any Oz rider and better than Woffinden at the same age.

I thought the same before the event re Harris/King and Cook in all honesty, there is a pretty decent variance re the body of work in all 3 riders careers even taking into account form this season (which stills sees Harris outperforming both) that suggests Harris scores more points in more meetings and wins more big races than either probably ever will, a case and point being a sum of 5 points in a World Cup Final is probably as good as it will ever get for Cook. I didn’t think it was out of the question that Woffinden, a two time World Champion would turn in a pretty decent score – more than I expected, yes, dictated the selection of the other 3? A situation that should have been capitalised on with the selection of other riders? Yes IMO, a situation that would have seen Team GB finish lower down the standings if it hadn’t been for his score, again yes, the core of the performance was always going to be, and was dictated by what Woffinden done. Re The other 3 only scoring 3, I probably did expect more than 13 from 3 Team GB riders, yes, pre throwing in Josh G, Masters and Ljung who can throw in the odd good ride is the kind of rider Team GB should be feeling they can take decent points from IMO Did I think they would win before the meeting, no, do I think post meeting the way it turned out and with a Harris on form they could have won/went pretty close, yes, hence the feeling it wasn't quite spot on.

And, that IMO, is why neither King nor Cook should have been near the team - more so when you take into account Josh G was a late replacement. Harris on the other hand has beaten Holder and Doyle a few times already in the GP this season even with questionable performance levels.

Looking at it on a race by race basis, if Harris had replaced Lambert do I think it is out of the question to say Harris could have beat the likes of Holder, AJ, Ljung, or Doyle no. If instead of Cook could he have beat riders like again Ljung, Masters, Holder – again, probably, wouldn’t have put it past Nicholls either on a good night. Again though, just to utterly reiterate and stress what I have said, there is an element of chicken egg. The whole basis of what I am saying is in relation to the “spot on” point, is that score the maxed out points Team GB could have scored with correct selections? When riders do literally score 3 and 5 that is what they scored on track so has to be taken into account Is that the most riders in those positions could have scored, and should have scored? no, no it isn’t IMO….if folks think that’s as good as it could have got fair play.

Yes, it’s completely daft to say isn't, it is genuinely mental to say - had other riders been picked who likely would have scored more than 3 or 5 points Britain would have scored more points, what a mental thought process…. I would have went with Harris over Cook personally, as there still isn’t the body of work to suggest Cook is better than Harris and Saturday confirmed that, as you kind of said in your post by saying “had Harris scored 5 people would have moaned”, you know why….because if he had scored 5 it would have been a poor score and he would have underperformed which is the exact thing I am saying re Cook, the score doesn't change as a poor score regardless of who scored it, if the best that was expected from Cook (and King) was 5, that alone is confirmation they should not have been picked. Cook scoring slightly more/less than Doyle and Lindback speaks of their failings rather than his achievements. And yes, I also think Harris would have scored more than 3, so you could argue the case and point for also picking him over Lambert (rather than just solely Cook) and there is a decent body of evidence to validate it Sure hindsight is a thing, but so is an actual speedway meeting where riders score points and you can say, poor score, could have done better than 3 or 5 points, it’s a really poor score for a World Cup Final.

If it is on the basis that the side is being picked for the future then pick riders who are actually for the future, as neither King nor Cook are and they showed that on Saturday. I don’t think that’s the structure with which the side was picked though, I think it was picked with the idea of getting the best performance possible, some might say that second was that, but in terms of how the actual meeting played out IMO more than second was there for Team GB To go back to what I originally said though, I am saying that if 3 riders score 13 points between them then it is questionable the side picked was spot on as that’s a pretty poor return from 3 riders, and thus not actually spot on and it isn't entirely out of the question to say AN other, eg Harris or Nicholls might have (probably would have) scored more than 3 or 5 respectively. Woffinden banging in the points he did (and will likely continue to do) is like taking shots at an open goal. It is likely he will score serious points which will see Team GB continue to perform above very low expectations (as shown by the reaction to Saturday), either actually properly go young, or properly go balls in with the idea of winning the thing, Saturday to me seemed like a half way house and the way the meeting played out probably confirmed that, you are probably never going to win a World Cup with King or Cook in the side, Harris or even Nicholls on a good night might have gotten the side even closer IMO, or "young riders" might have actually had the chance to learn, but again, aunty, uncle, balls, chicken, egg.

It wasn’t learned on the basis of one meeting re Cook rather that meeting being a culmination of a number of meetings at the top level pieced together now. Cook was really poor other than one ride, the result of the team (Woffinden) doesn’t gleam over that for me personally. It really wouldn’t have taken an exceptionally good side to beat Poland, a team with Craig Cook, Danny King and Lambert scoring 3 nearly done it. Fair play to King and Cook in particular for their medals and to some of what I am saying might sound overly harsh to some, but they neither performed above standard on the night nor offered any kind of performance that makes me think either should be selected again. To not look at that meeting and think what might have been is slightly off centre thinking for me.

Re: Woffinden. Not to sound what is supposedly “sycophantic” but to utterly trash the majority of comments made by Robert72, irrespective of the mostly trolling, looking for a reaction and idiotic nature of them…. Woffindens conduct on Saturday night was genuinely excellent from start to finish, presented himself, consciously and smartly negated questions to emphasise it wasn’t about him, was clearly hands on in his efforts to ensure the best finish possible. He is also actively vocal about bettering British Speedway, be it his wants for Team GB, his openness to holding training schools or even general tweets about his feeling re the state of British tracks. Not to say he should be listened to at every turn, but he should at least be used as a sounding board and conduit between Organisations/Riders re discussions about Speedway in this country given what he has already achieved in it IMO.

I appreciate there is a egg/chicken and aunt uncle balls element to it all, but I don't think a side is picked with the proviso of "score poorly get joker", although to be fair if it was 3 of the side did execute that superbly. I find the “looking to the future” argument a bit redundant when talking about a World Cup meeting personally. The best chance to win World Cups is on the night of the meeting. I would also be more inclined to buy into the idea of building for the future if it hadn’t been King and Cook used, in all honesty the only lesson learned re Cook on Saturday IMO anyway, is that he isn’t going to make it at the top level.

Doyle’s comment aren’t that farfetched in all honesty. Australia as a nation (Denmark, Poland, Sweden, Russia) all provide far more depth of talent than Britain currently do irrespective of the performance on Saturday, as a nation Britain is behind all despite the result of one meeting, it is regularly said on here.