daveallan81

Sorry Sidney, can only cover 78-84.

It helps immensely, thanks very much. Richardson in 4th it is. You don't happen to know the Dons #8 for that meeting?

Results from Speedway Star: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jnpvhd9m3rhv8ad/19800809HalivHackBL.pdf?dl=0

This will be the same Sale Sharks that posted losses of £1.5m in 13/14 and required wealthy owner Brian Kennedy to write of £12m worth of loans to keep the club as a going concern. Next week - Fred West gives gardening tips...

Speedway Star reported heat 13 as follows: Wyer, Johns, Pendlebury, 68.0 Note missing 4th rider. Johns is riding as a tactical substitute for either Rudy Muts or Colin Richardson. One programme says Johns replaced Muts and Richardson finished 4th. Another says Johns replaced Richardson and Muts finished 4th. The yearbook thinks that Johns replaced Muts and Richardson did not ride, copying the result in the Star. There are only 25 total rides for the team. Can anyone confirm the result of the heat from a programme marked at the meeting?

I've ran a set of track record figures for tracks operating in 1978 and stacked them against the tracks of today. The first notable thing is that all but 4 of the track records standing at the end of 1978 were set within the preceeding two years. I make it 13 modern records set before 2011. One could deduce from that that the speed was still increasing in 1978, but seems to have peaked 5+ years ago. However I am willing to concede that with less 'top' stars around the chances of records getting lowered is perhaps slimmer. But at a base level the figures come out like this: 1978 Average track length: 335.31m Average track record: 64.60 Average TR MPH: 46.34 Highest MPH: 52.57 (Exeter) Lowest MPH: 37.86 (Crayford) 2015 Average track length: 296.56m Average track record: 56.86 Average TR MPH: 46.52 Highest MPH: 54.66 (Sheffield) Lowest MPH: 37.52 (Plymouth) The one big stand out there is the drop in track size. 8 of 39 clubs in 1978 raced on tracks under 300m. Today 15 of 27 run on tracks under 300m. Let's compare them: 1978 Under 300m: ave. TR 60.20, 40.96mph 2015 Under 300m: ave. TR 54.53, 43.96mph 1978 Over 300m: ave. TR 65.74, 47.73mph 2015 Over 300m: ave. TR 59.76, 49.72mph So while we have reasonable parity in the overall analysis, there is a distinct decrease in times and an increase in speed when you run them split on track size. Sheffield is the only track that remains the same, at least in size. Track records 65.2 v 59.1 and speed 49.54mph v 54.66mph. Feel free to draw your own conclusions, but is the increased speed differential significant enough to be cited as the direct cause of 'bigger' accidents, more often? Or has that extra 10% since the seventies just pushed rider safety across the tipping point? If so, where do you wind it back to - would 1980's speeds be well within tolerance levels what with advances in track safety, helmet design, and so on?

A more in-depth analysis of the TR ride shows that in 7 of the 13 cases, the TR side would have lost if the double points aspect was removed. 5 made no difference, and 1 would have ended in a draw. Quite nicely balanced I would say. I've attempted to extrapolate the results from the TS era to see what difference they made. It's not entirely hypothetical - if a rider or riders fail to finish, taccy sub or not you're getting the points. I've tried to be quite harsh as well but here's how it goes for me anyway. Of the 20 matches, 10 were in each league. For the BL, I say 4 were influenced by the TS, 3 were not, 1 was a very tight no, and the other 2 were not proven, just too hard to say. In the NL, 2 were a yes, 2 a no, 5 were a very tight no, and 1 not proven. A total of 31 TS were used. 15 resulted in a 5-1 but only 3 were the result of a double tactical. All 3 occurred in heat 8, no other heat carried a double. 9 rides failed to decrease the arrears, 2 actually increased it. The other 4 were 4-2's. 13 matches featured just one sub, 3 had 2 (inc one double) and 4 had 3 (inc 2 doubles). Individually, points broke down like this: wins 13, paid wins 10, second 4, third 2 and fourth/no score 2. The TR is so clean-cut that you can say a definite yes or no as to whether it influenced the final score. There are just too many variables to say how influential the TS was. Others would perhaps call the marginal ones differently but even so, I'd say that it pans out similar to the TR - where a team wins using a facility, half of the time they'd probably have won anyway. And when you consider that we're talking about less than 4% of matches here, then the conclusion could be that less than 2% of matches have their outcome directly affected by whatever tactical rule is in place.

Average scores were: 1978 BL: 44-34 1978 NL: 45-33 2014 EL 50-41 2014 PL: 51-40 I ran average result figures from the 70's onwards in another thread a while ago (possibly to do with last heat deciders, can't remember) and I'm sure they came out similar to above, the home team wins by around 10. The old TS is a peculiar beast and I'm not sure you could ever analyse it in a way that would draw solid conclusions. The great Milton Keynes comeback at Edinburgh shows that you can blow your first TS and still come back to win. I'll see how the others stack up later but one thing seems clear - blow your TR and you will lose. Forget all about this fairness blitzkrieg and stop judging the past by today's tawdry standards. Grand Central strikes the correct notes when he talks about excitement and anticipation, about feeling bad because your boys failed to do enough to see off the challenge - is this not how we advance and better ourselves? By overcoming obstacles, rising above the challenge. Not by crawling into a corner bleating about how you only lost because of the stupid rules. That's the 21st century talking. But society has changed and unless I can get this Delorean started I'm stuck with it like the rest of you. While I'd like to see the TS rule back, the TR rule is plausible to the uninitiated, It's A Knockout references notwithstanding. It does however significantly detract from the tactical aspect, which means less talking points, less anticipation, less to enthuse about. I'm not sure the sport can afford to surrender any part of it's arsenal, no matter how trivial it may seem. The damage is done now though. I mean, what credence would the sport have if it were to publicize the return of an ancient rule as an attempt to attract a bigger crowd? It would surely only attract the attention of those who, like myself, are lapsed supporters still hanging around the periphery. But we have a veritable feast of racing at our fingertips, the best of the best from across the globe (well, bits of it) right there in our living rooms. Yet that's where we choose to stay because we see nothing to entice us from our hovels. The product is naff. We don't want it. Answers? None. Speedway's been dying since I first went at the end of the seventies. I've seen them come, but mostly seen them go. They've worried about everything from race formulas to points limits to tactical rules to guests to second halves, the list is both endless and repetitive across the decades. Some of the crucial changes have been almost imperceptible, others have left a giant steel-shoe print across the sport's face. But the end result is it's still slowly eroding away to nothing and I don't think there's very much anyone can do about it save try and slow it's dissolution. It's the lay of the land. Things become extinct.

Figures from all EL & PL matches (excluding play-offs) for 2014 and up to Wednesday 19th August 2015. These stats are taken from the SCB scorecards and I've used two seasons to try and get as big a sample base as possible. Total matches: 542 Total TR rides taken: 341 (62.92% of all matches had at least one TR) Total resulting in a win: 13 (3.81%) Total resulting in defeat: 328 (96.19%) Interesting note: of the 13 turnarounds, 11 saw the TR result in an 8-1, one required two bites at the cherry (4-4 & 8-1) and the other was a 7-2. No match using a TR ended in a draw. Of the 13 wins, 6 went for the home side, 7 away. Now, 1978 because I've got the figures to hand. Note that TS rides taken by reserves are NOT included, only rides by a member of the 1-5 have been counted. It's not always possible to pinpoint a reserve taking a TS so best to exclude them for a bit more accuracy. Total matches: 722 Total TS rides taken: 568 (78.67% of all matches had at least one TS) Total resulting in a win: 20 (3.52%) Total resulting in a draw: 16 (2.82%) Total resulting in defeat: 532 (93.66%) Interesting note: only 2 matches saw both teams utilise TS, on both occasions the home team went first, and later ran out winners. Those matches are not included in the above figures. Of the 20 wins, 8 went for the home team and 12 away. 1978 saw only 2 instances of a team winning from more than 9 down, although Milton Keynes managed that feat twice in one match at Edinburgh - 10 down at first TS in heat 5, and 12 down for the second in heat 9. They won 40-37. Twelve came from the statutory 6 down, two from seven behind and four from eight. Biggest deficit overhauled recently is 15, Redcar trailed after heat 5 but won 47-45. 1 came from 14 down, 3 from 12 (Coventry twice came from 12 down at Poole to win 48-47), 2 from 11 and 6 from 10. I'm not sure how to interpret these figures, there are so many differences between the two eras' rules. They would suggest that if you don't return at least a 7-2 you won't win these days. They would also suggest that if you have to resort to a tactical change in either era then your chances of winning are slim. The TS was more readily available yet less successful in securing a win. And so on. I'm willing to wager that these figures are a lot closer together than most thought they would be. Today you have a 1 in 28.4 chance of winning by using the TR, in 1978 your chances of picking up all the points were 1 in 27.6. But different rules. Different everything really. Bottom line is there ain't much between the two and if you happen to fall the requisite number of points behind that enables you to use whichever facility, the chances are you're going to lose anyway.

Thanks. Richardson's exclusion was reported. An explanation for Middlo's exclusion was carried in the next Poole programme, the two wheels rule appears to be new for 1978. It may have been explained to the crowd at the time, hence the note, so I'll add that to the 5 & 0 list but I'd need confirmation that the programme was from the meeting to say resolved.

Can anyone pick the bones out of this statistical carnage? All other riders points tally with all sources except Trevor Geer and meeting reserve Martin Yeates. Speedway Star match report: Scorers: Geer 6 & Yeates 0 Speedway Star match report: Heat details: Geer 5 (from 5) & Yeates 0 (from 1) Yearbook World Champ review (p.12): Geer 6 & Yeates 0 Yearbook Poole track review (p.153): Geer 4 & Yeates 1 Yearbook Trevor Geer biog (White City p.173): Geer 4 Yearbook Martin Yeates biog (Poole p.155): Yeates 1 1978 British Final programme: Geer 6 & Yeates 0 Marked programme from Poole (but could be SStar fill-in job): Geer 5 & Yeates 0 Yeates only ride came in heat 14 replacing tapes victim Neil Middleditch; Geer was also in that heat, finishing 3rd with Yeates at the back.

By way of an update, I've had a message off-forum that confirms the yearbook and the Hackney figures are wrong so I'll consider this resolved unless I hear otherwise.

The Speedway Star, a meeting-marked programme and the stats in the King's Lynn programme of 22/10 all report the following Hackney scorers: Keith White 1+1 from 3; Finn Thomsen 6 from 5; Vic Harding 7 from 4. However the yearbook reports: Keith White 0 from 2; Finn Thomsen 6 from 6; Vic Harding 8+1 from 5. And the stats in the final Hackney programme 27/10 seem to concur with the yearbook's version of events. White's only point came in heat 5, reported as Betts, McNeil, White, Gagen as noted in the marked programme. I need this result confirmed please - did Harding replace White? Thomsen rode at #5 and there was no r/r in operation so I'm at a loss to explain how he took 6 rides. His TS ride was in heat 8. Any information must come from a meeting-marked programme for obvious reasons.

Johnny Thomson, of Poole & Scotland, died on 13th May 1955 following an accident at Poole on the 9th. That date coincides with Poole v Ipswich in the National Trophy, a meeting Poole won 70-37. Scroll down this page for more info on winners: http://www.poole-speedway.co.uk/

Three replies - three different spellings of Thompson, eh Thomsen, no Thomson This sounds like a good shout as to the origin of the trophy, good work GC.

I've got that meeting listed as the Thomsen Memorial Trophy, rained off 9th September, restaged 30th as above.

This Sunday event was billed as a 'Cavalcade of Speed, Sport and Spectacle', to feature Royal Naval Displays, The Famous Bluejacket Band from H.M.S. Collingwood, greyhound racing, real & junior speedway and 'novelty events'. The real speedway portion featured Steve Bastable's Black Country Select and Bruce Penhall's International All-Stars. I'm looking for full details of this encounter if anyone has them.

You may be better getting this moved to the old duffers "Years Gone By" part of the forum. According to my results lists for 1995, the 17/05/95 Hull v King's Lynn meeting was rained off. Long Eaton were the next visitors, so maybe something in that.

https://app.box.com/s/5s7ggxs7156pfo0ww77n/1/536036742/5163097134/1 67.2 according to this programme. These scans, posted by Ian Presslie, are a handy resource: Teams A-S https://app.box.com/s/wm7cfpcwle17ebtue3q3 W-Z plus more https://app.box.com/s/5s7ggxs7156pfo0ww77n

I haven't seen the DVD - does it look like pro footage? If so it'll be from ITV's broadcast. If I recall correctly, they sent a crew at the last minute to cover Carter's story as much as anything else and it was combined with fuller highlights of the Intercontinental Final. That's the only footage I've ever seen from that meeting. The big question for me is - who choose that ghastly font for 'Tragedy'? Dearie me...

I was under the impression they were one and the same rider. Wolverhampton programmes from 1978 call him Hasse, while the yearbook calls him Hans but a bit of googling tells me that Hasse is the 'pet name' for Hans. Surname is spelled Danielsson.

Actually this one is all about the juniors and will need a marked programme to sort it out. Speedway Star reports: Crayford 14 (Nigel Sparshott 5, Jack Bibby 5, Paul Hollingsbee 4) Cradley Heath 4 (Paul Mitchell 3, John Homer 1) I have a marked programme that has Tony Brooks replacing Clayton Williams at #2 for Cradley (Mitchell replaces Paul Share at #1) with heat results as follows: Heat 1: Bibby, Sparshott, Brooks, Mitchell, 62.8 (5-1, 5-1) Heat 2: Hollingsbee, Bibby, Homer, Brooks (f, exc), 62.6 (5-1, 10-2) Heat 3: Sparshott, Mitchell, Hollingsbee, Homer, 62.2 (4-2, 14-4) Crayford scorers are OK, Cradley however differs with Mitchell on 2 and the mystery Brooks on 1.

Here you go. Sorry no idea who the non-riding reserves were. https://www.dropbox.com/s/qxlcqciqn0asbry/19820905WCityBritOpenIND.pdf?dl=0

Regarding the stunt co-ordinator - I'd be willing to bet my boots that it was actually Lex Milloy. http://wwosbackup.proboards.com/thread/1918 He was a junior on the northern circuit, last seen riding out of Powderhall in 1977. His appearance for Canterbury was as a guest at Belle Vue in what was the first ever BL 2nd division match, 8/5/68. He left Scotland to follow a career as a stuntman. He did most of the motorbiking scenes in cult 1985 movie 'Restless Natives'. According to film buff website IMDb Lex Milloy is also known for his work on Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves (1991), Ali G Indahouse (2002) and Spies Like Us (1985)

Here's an excellent piece from a 1978 King's Lynn programme entitled 'East Anglia's other speedways'. I was just going to post the KL related part here, but it's such a good article that I've typed it out in full. Take a look https://www.dropbox.com/s/fj7kcofef0yrr90/1978%20East%20Anglia%27s%20other%20speedways.pdf?dl=0