E I Addio

Read my post carefully and you will see I was not talking about you, I was talking about the poster you were commenting on i.e the one that commented on the state of the stadiums.. You raised question, I was answering that, not criticising you at all.

He blames the promoters for the state of the stadiums because, as a chronic complainer who hasn't been to a meeting in years, he always posts the first thing that comes into his head, rather than to take the time to put forward constructive criticism,.

Edinburgh have someone with a good potential in Sedgie. He was badly treated at Redcar but performed well at Lakeside, where on one occasion he came from the back to pass and beat Freddie Lindgren no less, so he has the ability but just needs to keep hid confidence going.. A really nice bloke and I am sure the fans will love him. Well done to the Edinburgh promotion in getting him in.

I totally agree and I know many others that do. The one thing that could be said in favour of the tac/sub in its day is that at least the fans got to see an on-form rider out in place of s struggling rider (usually) and the tac/ride doesn't even do that but times have changed , the world has moved on and its time to consign all the tacticals to history.

Has the rule of attacking the post not the poster been abolished, or is that another ban I see on the horizon ?

When did you ever get a different response from non-speedway fans in a pub ? Maybe in the late 40's early 50's but not in my lifetime. Mention football to non-football fans in a pub (e.g. me) and you get "22 overpaid prima donnas kicking a bag of wind about and behaving like kids" Mention cricket to non cricket fans and you get "Boring game" and so it goes on with non- fans of golf, boxing, stock-cars etc, The thing that's different about speedway is not the reaction of the non-fans its the number of so-called fans that can't wait to slag the sport off for imaginary reasons. Like the OP of this thread for example.

Never was on the side of promoting NL riders as such, but given the state of British speedway, if that is the price we have to pay for 36 league meetings a season a instead of 28 then we have to get behind the idea and run with it. Its the only show in town. At least I'll be there every meeting to see how it works out in practice before passing judgment, unlike the moaning minnies who tell us its doomed to fail before a wheel is turned. As for Jon Cook he has, unlike other promoters, at least bothered to go out and organise a fans forum for his club within a week after the AGM finishing to explain the new formats and answer anything else the fans wanted to ask.

I I creased up at that one. Poor old Sidney. Walks straight into them every time

... maybe they don't like the often unjustified criticism (and abuse) from people who proudly proclaim they haven't been for years, but will only post when they see the opportunity to put the boot in. Sometimes I don't know whether .to laugh or cry, there are so many genuine problems with the sport that are worthy of intelligent discussion yet so many posts are on the lines of "Whoa yeah gor blimey mate I fink the promoters are a bunch of idiots........" then go off on some incorrect tangent about some rule they think exists but doesn't or that Golden era when only Englishmen won the world final. The T/R ,Tac sub is classic example. SCB and Bwitcher have explained in the clearest possible terms, that even I can understand why the Tac Sub rule was even more unfair than the T/r rule but still we get people banging on about tac subs, and of course we get thread after thread like this one where mythical friends or blokes in the office are collapsing with laughter because of guest riders or something. That fact is that there are maybe a dozen or so posters that are really on the ball with different aspects of the sport and come up with some really constructive criticisms or realistic suggestions which make for interesting debate, whether you agree with them or not but many more only seem intent on chipping away at our favourite port with nonsense like this thread.

Let's try to concentrate on the topic under discussion.. The OP is not about ""speedway fans" and it is not about whether idiosyncrasies within the sport appear to be increasing. It is specifically about whether riders riding in different leagues reduce the sport to ridicule in the eyes of those on the outside. That is not a difficult concept for the average person to grasp. What fans within the sport think about other idiosyncrasies is irrelevant to this discussion.

Ah, so you don't know about the rule on bonus points then?

You are completely missing the point as usual.. Please read the title of the thread. The issue is not whether it is typical of the questions people new to speedway often raise. The issue is whether riders riding in different clubs in different leagues reduce the sport to ridicule. The overwhelming balance of opinion on the thread is that it does not. As has been pointed out, many sports have their own idiosyncrasies,

How precisely does it lose the sport credibility ? Are you not aware that a cricketer can play for his county in one league and club in another? What difference does it make if he does his job and entertains the crowd.? The other thing as John Leslie pointed out is the reality of this conversation with a "friend" who apparently knows about sport and has been to speedway meetings but until your "conversation " with him he apparently never questioned how come so many foreign riders were in the meeting in front of a crowd that obviously couldn't pay vast sums of money. And as a sports fan he wouldn't ever have watched it on Sky and got the gist of how it all works would he.? I have discussed the sport with a number of general sports fans and can honestly say the only thing they have found particularly odd is the T/R rule. None of them thought it odd that riders race for different teams in different countries.

I have on DVD an interview with Stuart Robson after a critical heat in a close match in which he said "I have absolutely no idea what the score is." The reason was he had been out 3 times in about 5 or 6 heats and checking the score was low on his list of priorities when he had probably no more than 7 or 8 minutes between races to get himself and his bike sorted and re-focussed on his next ride before going out again. If you had any idea at all what goes on in the pits you would know why the riders, more often than not, don't necessarily know what the team score is at a particular moment in a match.

Having done a little research it seems we were both wrong and the award is for the sportsperson who has most captured the publics imagination.. Even that is a bit of a nebulous term but I would have thought that someone who wins any sort of World Championship with a twice broken collar bone must have an irrefutable case to be included, unless you throw in the fact that most of the public are unaware of who he is but that surely must apply also to Ainslie and a whole range of other sports. When the programme was first introduced in 1954 it was limited to those sports shown on BBC's Sportsview programme, so as Speedway is no longer featured on BBC that might have something to do with it.. I seem to recall that when Mark Loram won the World title he didn't even get a mention. Whichever way you look at it the inclusion of Ben Ainslie , and a few of the others without widening out to a wider range of voters choices reduces it to a stitch-up IMO.

Surely the point is that the competition is not who is most successful or which is the most arduous or dangerous sport . It is the Sports PERSONALITY of the year. I am not sure how personality is supposed to be measured but I can't think of many modern sportsman that have that quality in abundance, certainly not Ainslie or Murray. Its a ridiculous programme not far removed from the X--Factor in which mostly couch potatoes will vote for whichever sport they happen to like. Nothing to do with talent or ability. Typical of the dross the BBC specialise in.

Here we go again. We have the same thing every year butt still the penny doesn't drop with some people. We have the AGM when the main structure is agreed then a few months later comes the post-AGM meeting and then the rules are published. It's not just these particular rules, so unless you have a crystal ball you don't know at this stage what the final draft of the rules will be. The season doesn't start until March so even if we were to say, for the sake of argument that the whole idea is a mess right now, what really matters is what is in force as from 1st March 2014, then you can jump up and down and stamp your feet as much as you like I am not saying its going to be ideal. Once you take the decision to put NL riders in an EL team there are always going to have to be compromises that reduce the overall compatibility of the competition, no doubt about that. All I am saying is there is no point in people going into overdrive and ranting about it if they don't yet fully understand how the system is going to work. Its a pity PL promoters wouldn't or couldn't have NL British reserves but we are stuck with that. Some of these things should have been started years ago and introduced more gradually but they weren't so we just have to make the best of it.

The answer is staring you in the face but if you can't work it out you'll have to wait for the rules. You won't like it of course because you won't like whatever they do, but for the moment just accept that you are completely wrong in banging on about reserves Coming out to replace a number one etc. Wait for the rules to be published then you can bang on to your hearts content about rules that actually exist instead of finding fault with rules that exist only in your imagination

How do you know that if the rules not been published ? Don't you think it would make more sense to wait and see how the 2014 rules govern No 6&7 riders.?? It obviously suits your agenda to base your fault-finding on speculation rather than fact but until you know what the rules say you are simply guessing. If you stop and think about it for about two milliseconds it is quite possible to formulate an arrangement whereby the !-5 might cover to some extent for each other..

You have to laugh. A rider apparently gets the wrong end of the stick, the forum mal-contents take it as gospel and go into meltdown, Wizzer clarifies the position with the rider , but the forum experts (Who have absolutely no idea how it is going to work) are predicting Armageddon. Give it a break guys. We haven't even had the post-AGM meeting yet , let alone rules being published and the season is still 4 months away. The only thing we can say for sure is Phil Morris is known to be a good bloke , has a passion for the sport and up till now has never really put his name to anything that is detrimental to youth training so maybe one or two should wait until we have the complete picture before jumping in with their size 13's. Plenty of time for that, if necessary when all the details are out.

In your efforts to appear cleverer than the rest and present the BSPA as total fools it is yourself you have made look foolish. The BSPA have announced a package of measures which are inter -dependent and have to be looked at as a whole, not individually. Lets have a look at some of these "half-arsed ideas at the drop of a hat".- 1. Sticking with riders who are prepared to commit to a full season of British Speedway rather than disappearing off to continental meetings as and when it suits them. What a half -arsed idea that is. Everybody knows how much the fans want to see r/r and guests as often as possible. 2. Increasing the league programme from 28 meetings to 36 , so those riders committed to British Speedway can earn reasonable living. I can see why you are against that half -arsed idea. And of course all the EL fans think 14 home matches was too many anyway didn't they.? As for it being made up at the drop of a hat, sorry to disappoint you but Jon Cook announced last July that he and his fellow promoters were looking at ways of increasing the number of meetings in 2014.But of course you wouldn't know that would you ?Ignoring the facts makes it easier to make dumb comments about the ideas being at the drop of a hat. 3.In increasing the number of fixtures it is necessary to reduce the cost per meeting. If people like Bob Dugard are losing £70k per 14 meetings then 18 meetings will lose him £90k unless costs are reduced, To any thinking person it must be reasonably obvious that these have been necessary measures to take. Never mind about past mistakes that got us into this situation, this is where we are now and this is what is being addressed. Are you with me so far ? I doubt it but lets continue . 4.A key element in cutting costs per meeting and trying to bring the long term stability of a good supply of British riders is the fast tracking idea. Yes I know that something could have been done years ago but it wasn't, and I now the NL boys could go through the PL route but that wouldn't save EL costs so what we have is the only show in town, if the whole package is going to work. Stick to the PL if that's what makes you happy, but to strand on the side lines and make silly comments about the quality of BSPA press releases only makes you look silly. The post AGM press releases have been like that for years. Nothing new there but what you fail to understand is that the press releases are the least of our problems right now. The immediate issue is getting a full league programme in 2014 without any more clubs going under and at least something is being done to turn the corner. When or the day comes when the most important topic is the quality of BSPA press releases most us will be happy to debate it,. Of course you could always attend Jon Cooks forum next Friday and tell him how half-arsed and at the drop of a hat it all is but somehow I doubt that you will. I see Tsunami has already dealt with your crass comments about the reason Neil Machin has sold up.

OK. To put it as succinctly as I can, it seems to me British Speedway needs to achieve three things in order to survive :- 1. To keep losses to a sustainable level so no more clubs go out of business. None of us have access to the accounts but with the exception of Peterborough we presume that the fact all the rest are running, suggests they all think they can make a go of it, so hopefully we are over the first hurdle, otherwise its simply no promoters= no speedway. 2. We need a better league programme than 28 meetings partly because experience has showed that with a mere 14 home meetings a number of fans drift off into other interests, and partly because riders like Craig Cook who don't yet have jobs abroad need to earn a decent living in the top league and not spend half their lives doubling up. We are promised 36 EL fixtures, which sounds like an improvement to me, so I would think most people are reasonably happy up to this point. Now comes the controversial bit. 3.There needs to be a steady supply of British riders so that in the long-term future we don't have to incur the massive cost of bringing foreign riders over, and we don't slip back to the pattern of clubs incurring massive debt as in recent years. Personally I don't particularly want to see two NL races in an EL meeting but unlike some on here I recognise that speedway doesn't exist just for me , it exists for all fans at all clubs so if that's what it takes to achieve points 1&2 above then I'll get behind it and support it. Of course, the devil is in the detail and their are some answered questions that need to be sorted, but personally I am not to fussed about that at this stage. Jon Cook is meeting Lakeside supporters n Friday and he will be filling in the details and answering questions. No doubt other promotions will be doing similar things in the course of time. Those who genuinely want answers can attend these things. Yes ,I know it would be nice if all the implications had been published already but the reality is that the season doesn't start for another 5 months so personally I can't get too wound up about the detail at this stage. No doubt more will be revealed When Cookie delivers his discourse, on Friday,.

So basically you are he only one that has thought it through and you must be right because you say so ? I think it is pretty clear to all except those who will never be satisfied, that there are a lot of details yet to be filled in, possibly with some fine tuning /modifications needed. There are probably more questions than answers at the moment, but surely it makes more sense to wait for the complete picture, and certainly it would be daft IMO not to wait and see what Jon Cook has to say next Friday before jumping to conclusions. As has already been said we have got an increased home league programme, up from 14 meetings t0 18. We have got rid of the ridiculous system of facing some teams twice and some teams once, and we have a system for fast tracking young talent for which all details are not yet clear. These are all things that people have been demanding on here for years. We couldn't stay where we were. We are not yet where we need to be but a step has been taken in the right direction. The full picture has yet to evolve but I am amazed that the usual suspects are prepared to condemn it on the basis of relatively limited information.

On the other hand it doesn't make him any less of an expert than you. Unless you have a crystal ball I am not sure why your opinions which you have set out so dogmatically should carry any more weight than Tai's,

Except that Christer wasn't the top man. Olle Nygren was.