E I Addio

It just gets better and better

Another Starman classic ! If they are not under starters orders and the green light is not on the tapes won't be going up anyway

You asked what professional sport allows its sportsmen to compete in different leagues and I told you. If you are now widening it out to talk about several leagues throughout the world then it has be said that speedway is in a unique position because it is probably the only sport where this is physically possible. If you are saying that we would be better off and attendances would be better if riders like Darcy Ward and Tai Woffinden stuck to Poland then you really have taken leave of your senses. Its an academic point anyway because even if the Worlds best were riding in the EL you still wouldn't go and would still ,be sitting on the sidelines moaning about the first thing that comes into your head. I really don't know what your problem is, unless you need to get a life, but if you don't like the modern sport that much spare us the "you've all got your heads in the sand routine" and go off and find something you do like. Its that simple.

Cricket. Next Question..........(try to make it a sensible one)

So Muddlo is not TM anymore then ?

I would just like to see one more cracking maximum from Peter Karlsson before he finally hangs up his Kevlars, and to see Ricky Ashworth fully recovered.

The fact that attendances have dropped off is beyond dispute. It is easy to suggest this or that reason for the decline but unravelling the exact cause is more complex and more difficult. There are many factors that affect attendances. For example why is it that Peterborough with a good race track and decent world class riders, that are exciting to watch on their home track could not get their average crowd above 700 (according to Rick Frost) while Poole's lowest crowd of the season was higher than the Panthers average ? It is certainly good enough to encourage some ardent fans (such as Blupanther) to make a very long round trip to EOES on a regular basis. Could the answer be that due to a changing population people in the Peterborough area are simply not minded to support that type of sport however exciting it is made ? Birmingham with a winning team has really struggled with crowds whist Wolves, just up the road seem to have balanced the books despite more adversity and less success while competing in exactly the same league. At Lakeside this year the crowds were very poor in the early part of the season then from mid-June they suddenly picked up, and according to the promotion the crowd figures in July and August were comparable to some of the best crowds prior to the recession and the meeting on 23rd of August was the best week-night crowd the present promotion have had, bettered only by Bank-Holiday and Saturday meetings. What caused this sudden improvement ? It was simply that in this part of the country we ran into the best summer for some years and speedway is a great place to be on a warm evening. All these things have to be factored into attendances. I know the weather has always been erratic in this country but undoubtedly peoples tolerance of such things in this day and age is less than it was 20 or 30 years ago. The other thing that has to be factored in is peoples changing entertainment habits. Grass track racing is really struggling, even more than speedway, moto-cross is just about treading water, stock car racing is only viable at many venues because of a few big meetings a year but with relatively poor crowds at many smaller meetings. Greyhound racing has virtually disappeared from London, and everywhere you go pubs which are closing at the rate of about 30 per week are being turned into McDonalds or Tesco Express. Traditional High Street shops are closing all over the place. They question that the critics of modern speedway never want to answer is this: Does the fact that all these other enterprises are struggling or closing down indicate that they are also being run incompetently and don't know what their customers want or is it just possible that in the modern world peoples tastes are changing. ? Clearly the GP system is having a detrimental effect on the domestic fixtures but we can't do much about that, although the present changes may help to become less dependent on foreign riders. That is a fact of life we have to deal with. we can't ban the televising of continental meetings. Weather the televising of domestic meetings spoils the sport is a matter of conjecture. Obviously it hits the crowd of any particular meeting but I doubt whether any one not involved with the cost/benefit ratio is qualified to judge, especially when you take into account the beneficial aspect of attracting sponsors. So in summary its all very well to shoot from the hip and highlight various problems which we all know exist but unless you look at the wider picture and try to separate the various factors its very difficult to point to any single cause such as the play-offs, and say if we got rid of this or that everything in the garden would be rosy.

Posts are to be judged not only in the spirit in which they are written but also in the spirit in which they are read. Since post 153 HA's posts have collected a total of eleven "likes" so clearly a number of people have understood the general thrust of the points he was making, and he managed to make his points without aiming personal insults at another poster. On the other hand the number of "likes" your posts have collected in response to HA is..er.. ..none, although someone has had to ask what you are talking about. . Possibly the fault lies with the spin you are choosing to put on the posts rather than the broad point the poster was trying to make.

The era you are talking about, i.e the entertainment tax and crowds of 60,000 is not really the era PC was talking about. For crowds of 60,000 you have to go back to the late 1940's/early 1950's but then what happened ? Within a few years , by the late 1950's the sport had almost died out in this country (far worse than it is today). and was saved not by the worlds best riders (who were already on show), but by the basically amateur Provincial League which brought a regular weekly league programme and a variety of teams. We have been through the T/R and joker argument countless times on this forum and personally I hate the rule but if you abolished it tomorrow you still wouldn't put another few hundred on the average gate of every club nor bring some of them into profit.. Some fans actually like the rule. If that is what it takes to keep TV sponsorship then we have to run with it, that is the unfortunate reality. The main point is that your previous post was based on the statement that the public want to see the worlds best riders but you have provided no evidence that bringing them in would make a significant change to the size of the average gate. We still keep coming back to the fact that we all have our own personal preferences that might possibly add a few here and there or may not but nobody can come up with a viable plan to make a massive difference.

That is a good point Sidney, but something PC never mentioned. I am sure you are old enough to remember the days when riders like Terry Betts would change into their leathers in the car on the way down, arrive a few minutes before the start, get the bike off the car and go straight out on parade. I am not saying it should be last-minute stuff like that today but it always amazes me how riders can be arriving from around 5 pm onwards and by 7-30 or 8 pm some of them are still not ready to go out on parade.

........but a lot of them are not prepared to pay for it. Therein lies a large part of the problem. The forum is full of people who say £17 is too much to pay. In a difficult economic climate it is understandable that many can't afford it. Those are the ones that expect to see world class riders being paid peanuts. There is also a fair body of opinion that says they prefer NL or PL meetings because in their opinion the racing is better, so world class riders are not a draw as far as they are concerned. Do the sums. After you deduct VAT the promoter is left with a little over £14 from the original £17. By the time you allow for concessions and season tickets the admission per punter averages out at around £13 per head. Now, instead of making bald statements about what you think would happen, tell us how much it would cost to attract the "worlds best riders" (those are your words not mine) and how many extra punters it would take through the gate to balance the books, taking into account rain-offs and cold wet evenings where a lot are put off by the weather, but stadium rents etc still have to be paid. This is part of the problem. People have these grand ideas about getting big crowds back but nobody is prepared to put pen to paper and work out what it would all cost. Have you any idea at all what it would cost to get the worlds best e.g. Greg, Emil, Nicki etc to commit to a full season over here.? I doubt it. The bottom;line is that you can you can't please everyone, and speedway now probably has more diverse opinions among the fans than almost any other sport. Of course seeing the worlds best for £10 admission is a great idea, but whether it would pay is a totally different matter.

I agree Ivan had more than his share of rollers and I didn't like him for that reason. The point is though, should the World Championship be decided on that sort of unsatisfactory start ? In the context of the discussion we are having my point is that the GP system does away with a rider becoming World Champion by a bit of luck or cheating on the day. I understand the arguments about selection and qualification but nobody can say that Tai won his title on the basis of luck or gate positions. These things even themselves out over a GP series.

I don't want to wander too far off topic but that comment shows how the discussion is entering the realms of fantasy. So Szczakiel's performance wasn't a one -off? Can you just remind us of his consistently world class performances outside of Poland ? Apart from his 0 points in the '71 Final that is. I can't find any reference to him in any other World Finals, unless he paid to get in.. And what did he score in the Daily Mirror World Series two moths before the winning the World Final ? Zero I believe. He then rode at Wembley in the WTC a couple of weeks after becoming world champion and managed another world class 0.. Hardly puts him among the all time greats but more importantly suggests his WC win was a bit of a one off performance. His infamous run off with Mauger for the title is on youtube. Look at it carefully http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQplGWLW7Zw Was the Pole allowed to get a roller or whatt ? The rules require the riders to have an equal start. Is right that in a run-off to decide the Speedway Championship of the World this sort of roller should be allowed ? Look at the start marshal. He stands still and doesn't even raise his arms to signify the riders are under starters orders, Szczakiel rolls and the ref lets the tapes go. Look at Maugers throttle hand. The riders are supposed to be allowed 1.5 seconds between coming under starters orders and the tapes going up, to allow them to get their engines spinning. Mauger is only just opening his throttle as he sees Szczakiel starting to roll. Clearly there was no proper signal to put the riders under starters orders. The whole attitude of the referee is shown after Mauger crashes. He is lying unconscious on the track being attended by a doctor, For all anyone knew at that stage Maugers life could have hung in the balance yet the referee allows the "race" to continue. Szczakiel then demonstrates his arrogance by coming round on the next lap, on seeing the unconscious Mauger and the medics on the track , instead of shutting off he deliberately rides wide to within a couple of feet of Mauger and showers both him and the medics with shale. Disgraceful behaviour Earlier in the meeting even Dave Lanning had commented that the Polish authorities were making up the rules as they went along. Putting all these facts together there is no doubt in my mind that the whole thing was a stitch up. The Poles were desperate to have a world champion and Szczakiel knew the ref was going to let the tapes go when he rolled.. To my mind this was the event that makes the case for the GP system. We had some good one-off finals after that but it was increasingly a game of chance.

Absolutely spot on.

That post is a classic example of the narrow minded view that seems to prevail amongst certain blinkered fans. Personally I don't like the double points rule, in fact I loath it and have said so many times on here. Nobody would be happier than me to see the back of it. But the plain fact is that various fans have come on here and said they like it and it should stay, so who am I or you, to say our opinion is better than theirs and they are wrong. They are still fans with their opinions. Bottom line is, it won't stop me going to speedway. You are right, the sport has been in a healthier state, but PC has apparently not suggested any new ideas, just going back to the old ones.

I don't know if you have read the whole thread but nobody has said he doesn't have something to offer. This is what SCB posted yesterday;- "Nobody has said he should have no opinion. everyone is entitled to an opinion. But just because he could ride a speedway bike better than most 30-odd years ago doesn't mean he knows how to make the sport a success now " He has an opinion but the trouble is some on here think it is think it is the only opinion worth listening to. .

The point was running a speedway club in the modern world. Not sure why PC's opinion should be revered any more than Chris Morton's or Chris Louis who have to find a way of making the books balance in the speedway world of 2014, or for that matter ex-riders like Rosco or Muddlo. who still have a day-to-day hands on role. All PC has done is to articulate the views of certain fans, but that still doesn't make those views more valid than those who disagree. You can bet your life SS won't provide any balance by publishing an interview with a senior figure in the sport with an opposing view, or an explanation of why things are as they are. Just to take up the point about riders being called back ,for example, yes, it is frustrating for the fans when a start gets called back but the real reason is that riders all too often DO jump the start and if they were too stay still the majority of false starts wouldn't happen. The trouble is certain fans think they have a better view of who is rolling and who isn't from 50 or 100 metres away than from the refs box which is usually the best view in the stadium, and this are the same ones that only want top see one side of the problem. I would love to see an interview with someone like Mick Bates, an ex-rider now a ref giving his thoughts on the subject, but of course SS would never publish anything like that because their readership now seems to consist almost entirely of the "bring back the old days brigade" who are only interested in one side of the argument.

I agree with that. It would have been more informative if SS had published an interview with someone like Chris Morton or John and Chris Louis.. They have ridden at the top level and have also seen at first hand the problems of running a speedway club in the modern world.

If I am reading his post #350 correctly it seems he does indeed spend his time looking at stuffed birds, on fast broadband apparently

You just reminded me of one of Mark Twain's satirical comments--" Why are people happy at a birth and sad at a funeral ?........Because they are not the person involved" (its called black humour). Made me laugh anyway.

I understand the point you make which was fair enough back in the days of straight win or lose when a team only had to win get 7points up in real terms on the final scoresheet in order to defeat 2 successful tacticals but now we have a scoring system which to my mind is excellent in giving a gallant loser something from the match. You haven't commented on that aspect but surely giving two bites of the cherry as we now do (through tacticals and league points) is giving a failing team too much ? And does an 8-1 really galvanise a team more than a 5-1 ? If a team is 10 points down and get a 5-1 they only have to share the remaining heats to get something out of the match. If that doesn't galvanise them they don't deserve anything IMO. Above all having t/r's in a two leg match really does seem to be a ridiculous extreme to me, and surely reduces it to a lottery?

It's one thing to keep a meeting alive, but a totally different and a rather unattractive proposition to hand an undeserving team league points. To my mind any possible merit the tactical ride may have once had is negated by the introduction of the present system of league points. In the example you give the T/R rule would have made no difference to the quality of the racing. You do not state the final score but it is clear that even without the T/R rule Glasgow would have taken at least a league point from it which is fair reward for putting up a decent fight and Sheffield get two points for a deserved win but a "must do better" lecture from the TM for not getting all 3 points. For a team to get a 3 league points getting a 7-point win is a reasonable ask but be sure of overcoming two T/R's means they have to achieve what is in real terms a13-point advantage to win by 7 on the score sheet and get all 3 league points. The worst aspect of the t/r rule IMO is that it favours top heavy teams. A good solid strength in depth team is probably going to stay in striking distance and have limited chances of a t/r but a team with a strong top two and a weaker tail can get two successful t/r rides then be able to come on strong in heats13 and 15. For that reason especially I don't think you can ever have a fairly balanced league competition while you have a rule that favours one team against another I understand what you say as a neutral but the fact is that it is the week-in, week-out regulars that keep a club afloat and from that perspective I think there is nothing more demoralising than seeing your team win on the track but lose under the t/r rule. I can see the merit in making the t/r go off 15 metres to add an element of risk in the tactic,

I know about F1 but its got nothing to do with what immediately went before and orions question which is still not answered.

Give up before you make yourself look more stupid. 3 is still not worth more than 8.

Nobody is defending the promoters, merely suggesting you get a few facts straight. The real boom years were in the immediate post war period for just a few years before crowds were driven away by the crippling cost of the governments entertainment tax (passed on to admission charges) and the growth of television.By the end of the 1950's the sport had all but ceased to exist and was only saved by the founding on the cut price Provincial League, which of necessity was in rented stadiums. Whist a few clubs may have been comfortable speedway in general existed on a shoestring from that point on. If you read Len Silvers book he has always led a pretty much hand to mouth existence as a promoter, often subsidising the sport from his outside interests, especially in recent years. Over the last 50 years the promoters have been collectively responsible for many things but being awash with money is not one of them. As usual you again peddle the untrue line about people believing there is nothing wrong with speedway. Those of us that still go (which doesn't include yourself, as you never tire of telling us) are fully aware of the problems because we are confronted with them all the time. The last thing we need is those like yourself, who no longer have time for the sport doing your best to put the boot in and belittling those who still enjoy it by twisting the facts of speedway history instead of bothering with constructive discussion.