E I Addio

In other words you can't tell us which teams in the 2013 Elite League have, to use your own words, "been purposely throwing matches all over the place". Didn't thinks so

I think you'll find that in a lot of sports the crowds are poor when its freezing cold and likely to P down with rain, then they pick up when the evenings get longer and warmer.

http://www.lakesideh...content/?p=6138 Seb has hardly pulled up any trees this year but there's no doubting his commitment.

So, in support of your claim that "teams are purposely throwing points all over the place in order to strengthen up mid-term", the best you can do is to mention a well known episode involving Poole 4 years ago, and an unidentified Midland club strengthening up several years ago, although you can't tell us which matches they were throwing. That's hardly teams throwing points all over the place is it ? You are not doing very well with the point so far, but lets have another try, so specifically :- CAN YOU TELL US WHICH IF ANY TEAMS IN THE 2013 SEASON HAVE DELIBERATELY THROWN POINTS IN ORDER TO STRENGTHEN UP AND WHICH MATCHES THEY DID IT IN ?

Spot on, but unfortunately its a fact of life that the chronic complainers like Moxey63 prefer to ignore because it doesn't suit their argument, or fall in line with their whingeing. Speedway has its problems of course but they will not be solved by turning the clock back in bringing in second halves etc. The term bumper crowds is really a relative expression. If the average present day attendance is 1000 and a local derby brings in 1500 then that is a relatively bumper crowd even if the crowds were twice that amount 15 years ago. The first question to answer is where have all the crowds gone. If most outdoor sports are, as you correctly point out, struggling with crowds compared to 10-15 years ago then that clearly suggests there are other factors involved, such as x-boxes and computers, that are outside the control of the speedway authorities. That's your opinion of Tsunami but your contribution to the topic under discussion the thread is..........?

Really ? Can you tell us which teams were purposely throwing matches mid season in order to strengthen up, and which matches were they doing it in ? Or is that something you can't prove and just made up to suit your argument ?

I don't particularly disagree with any of that. I was not intending to be unfair to Travis as a rider simply illustrating a point that great riders like Leigh are great because they are meticulous in every detail including observing subtle track changes, that's why they learn to ride them all.

I am not saying there is no such thing as home track advantage, just that the concept of it is over-rated, and there is a lot of nonsense talks about it, as if the actual track itself was the most crucial factor. If I am understanding your above post correctly I think I more or less agree with you. Obviously certain riders have different abilities on different tracks and by packing your team with riders who can ride that type of track they will be a strong team at home, but I don't think the tracks themselves i.e size and shape give an inherent advantage that can't be overcome, its more to do with the attitude of the riders. I take your point about Craig Cook and there are a number of riders like that, but he is relatively new to the sport and time will tell whether he can learn to ride different types of tracks. I always remember watching Leigh Adams at Lakeside, he would be standing right next to the airfence every time the track was graded then go out and ride were the tractor had been. Travis McGowan on the other hand, in the same meeting would ride the same line race after race, and come last race after race. That's why Leigh was a great rider and McGowan was an also ran, so, yes I agree rider and track have to match for the advantage but riders can learn to conquer tracks they don't like. Spot on Sidney but its more than a big track/ small track thing. When Lee Richardson was at Eastbourne, he said Lakeside, a very similar size track, was his most hated track in the whole of Europe but he eventually signed for the Hammers because he knew that getting to grips with the track would make him a better rider, and of course history tells us that once he got to grips with it he wanted to come as a full asset. So you are dead right Sidney its all in the mind, but lets not minimise it, its hell of a mentally tough sport and we should cut riders some slack when they don't get their minds round certain tracks.

So how do you define home track advantage ? I think its on the Malcolm Simmons DVD where Simmo said Exeter was so big and fast that a lot of riders were defeated in their minds before they got on the track. Trevor Hedge said something similar about Hyde Road. Is that home track advantage or is were they just tracks that intimidated certain riders ? You mention both Lakeside and Peterborough as being in the top 3 for home advantage but if you take a rider like Kenny Bjerre, at his best he is very good at whichever of the two he rides, but when he doesn't get his head together he is pretty mediocre at both. Is that the rider or the track ? There are many, factors that affect a track even including the type of material used for the racing surface. Any track curator worth his salt (and there are not that many of them around these days) will be able to prepare a track the way the home riders want, and that I would suggest is one of the main determining factors of home advantage. People throw these expressions around like trick tracks and home advantage but getting a consistent definition of what the terms mean is more difficult. According to Stuart Robson, who has a bit of experience in these matters Lakeside is the most physically demanding EL track because of the effort required to turn the bike sharply, but I guess you know more about these things than he does.

http://www.lakesidehammers.co/content/?p=6108 Well done especially to former West Ham and Sunderland rider George Barclay and his wife Linda who always do a fantastic job on behalf of the Ben Fund and have been helping riders for years in many different ways.. Unsung heroes like these working quietly in the background are the real life-blood of speedway and we should all be grateful to them. Well done guys.

TBH I think new rider or not its all a question of whether points can be taken from Kings Lynn. Not often Lakeside are in the frame to take points from Peterboro at the EOES and even less likely Swindon later in the week. As I have said before Lakeside were too slow getting going in the early part of the season, so I can't get too excited about it all now. too many things have gone wrong that shouldn't have gone wrong. Overall I would say it is a season to forget, not just from a Lakeside point of view but also from a speedway point of view.

Apparently not. Due to be in for the Poole meeting at home Friday week, which will possibly be the last home meeting of the season.

That's a good post. If I remember correctly Freddie Lindgren wasn't too hot on the Monmore track when he first arrived but he decided that by being persistent and learning to master it would make him a better rider, and boy didn't it just ! That's the thing with speedway , it is so much a confidence sport, it takes a lot of determination to get on and rider what ever is in front of you.

Quite likely, and it wouldn't be the first time ! Thanks for clarifying.

Instead of blurting out tosh explain how they do have a big home advantage. Explain how riders like Jurica Pavlic and Tomasz Jedrjak scored maximums the first time they ever saw the place if Lakeside is that difficult. Those tracks do take a particular type of skill, and Lakeside is said to be the most physically demanding EL track so those riders who don't use their head or are not fully fit will get caught out, but that's what racing is about. Peter Karlsson was coming down and reeling off big scores long before Lakeside was his home track. Riders like Lindgren, Woffinden, NKI, Holder, etc can hit big scores on all tracks.

I don't quite follow what you are saying, but that's probably me being a bit obtuse. However what I was doing was adopting UK Martins point (which is flawed) and taking his argument that to win at Lakeside you need as many guests as possible who are track specialists, to its logical conclusion. I was pointing out that Swindon won with there regular team, not a team packed out with track specialist guests. In other words quality riders are quality riders, not track specialists. When clubs build their teams at the start of the season they know which tracks they have to visit, so if they pick riders who can't ride a particular track then that's down to the team they pick, not the track. Sour grapes for people to blame the track when their team lose. I spoke to Adam Shields about this a few years ago, and his response was that it was just as hard for him to go to places like Swindon and Coventry and to gate first and stay in front as it was for their riders to come to Lakeside and do the same. Every track has a home advantage because the home riders are able to work on their set ups every week instead of having to work them out on a track walk once or twice a season. The home team also has the advantage of having the track prepared as they want it and that is often a very significant factor, rather like a cricket team preparing the wicket to suit the home side. Good riders are good riders though, wherever they ride.

Orion whose post you were criticising and telling him to get life, never said what Lee did was unforgivable, he simply said it was against the law and we can't pick and choose which laws we obey and which we ignore. Maybe you think it is ok for people to ignore laws they don't like but I don't think it's reasonable to tell someone to get a life because they say they law should be obeyed. Go back and read your post again and reflect on how stupid you made yourself look.

Very strange then that the only team to win at Lakeside this year were Swindon who didn't rely on guests. On the basis of your logic Perry Barr must also be a trick track because the only team to go there and win this year were Swindon. On the other hand, on the basis of your reasoning Belle Vue must be a fantastically neutral track because plenty of teams go there and win.

With respect, Bwitcher, you are not quoting him properly. He said "An increasing number of this type of fan ON HERE Undoubtedly a lot of dyed in the wool fans have left the sport in recent years but they do not generally post on here. The ones Tsunami is referring to are those who can't accept times change, can't accept that the old days have gone, can't accept that the loss of second halves and that the one day off world final is gone for good or that the play-offs are here to stay, and as you yourself have correctly pointed out on many occasions, bleat on about rule changes which only exist in their head because they don't understand what the rule book actually says. I am not defending the many shortcomings of those who run the sport but I have no time for the mischief makers either, who claim to care about the sport from behind their keyboards but really only want to do it harm. Many of the things that people bleat about on here are far removed from the real issues that plague the sport. Trees post immediately above this one makes a point worth thinking about though.

Nothing wrong with orion's comment. If you don't like people making a point that differs from your own there not much point in you being on a discussion forum. Read orion's comment again and tell us what's wrong with it as a discussion point, instead of this yawn, yawn rubbish you post because you can't manage to think of a sensible reply. Maybe the Clown is right about you.

That's not correct. Cannabis contains many of the same chemical nasties that are found in tobacco, so anyone who smokes weed probably doesn't even know the risks of smoking tobacco let alone the risks of smoking weed. I remember George Harrison saying he quit smoking weed when he put some under a microscope and realised what muck he was passing into his brain. Whether it is safer than alcohol is irrelevant. If you argue the case that alcohol is dangerous that doesn't somehow make cannabis safe.

I think Ljung is now a Lakeside asset and gets on well with Jon Cook so he must be the most likely candidate. I believe he didn't want to do a full British season on top of his Swedish and Polish commitments but with the Polish season soon to be winding down he can probably cope with a few extra meetings (and money). The problem is that the re-arranged Sky meeting at Peterboro seems to fall on the day of the Swedish Championship so PK and Ljung, (if it is him will be missing)

Add to that Gary Middleton getting in the papers for waving a gun around in the pits.Just the sort of "characters" speedway needs.

Pinchin hasn't thought that one through, just as he hasn't thought most of his half-baked ides through, and relies on sweeping generalisations that show an ignorance of the sport that really is a disgrace for someone that purports to be a professional motorcycle journalist. For instance Pinchin, who has never actually worked on a speedway track in his life tells us that track prep is left to the last minute. What a complete idiot. If he were to turn up at Monmore , Kings Lynn, Arlington, Lakeside and many others 8 hours before start time he would find track curators like Doc Bridgett, Gerald Richter, Bob Dugard, Buster Chapman and others were well under way already. Pinchin then compounds his ignorance of the sport by saying put more dirt down. If you put more dirt down nothing will happen until you put some water with it. The skill is getting the right mix of dirt and water, but that's where the weather comes in . if there is a risk of rain the track has to be prepared differently or if there is an unexpected downpour or if expected rain passes you by it can mess up the plans for track prep. Really Pinchin ought to speak to the people who do the job before making sweeping generalisations as if he is an expert himself Pinchin also talks about handing the promotion to a marketing company as if he is the only one that has thought of the idea but unfortunately this professional journalist has made no enquiries as to what it would cost and whether it would be cost effective and what if any effect it would have on admission charges. It is easy the throw ideas with looking at the economics of it. If he could come up with some figures it could be an interesting point but unless and until he looks at the cost it is a non point. He makes other points that are nothing new and have all been churned out on this forum from time to time by the ordinary fans, some ideas are good, some not so good, but nothing new and more importantly nothing costed. The more pressing issue is what sort of a league we build next year that stops promotions loosing vast sums of money and controls costs, providing a regular league programme (not like the stop-start EL we had this year) while still providing a decent standard of racing. If that can be worked out the sport will be in a better state than it will be by people like Pinchin getting upset because the music is not to his taste or the Burger Bar that is not under the control of the promoters is rubbish.

That is the root of the problem. When a certain rule is enforced/applied inconsistently it leads to the perception that the rule is at fault, rather than those who did or did not enforce it correctly.