Shoddy

Have liked a few, think Sheffield is a good racing track now (certainly compared to some polished rubbish that's around) and I saw some good meetings at Cradley and King's Lynn. Exeter is a fantastic track when the home riders are behind - Richard Green at full pelt around the boards was an unbelievable sight! All time favourite for me would have to be Odsal though - the only good thing to ever come from Bradford - apart from me of course!!! The 1985 World Final was fantastic and the 1990 meeting was an all time great final (if not, in my opinion, the standard - sorry Per!) I saw an old video of a league match the other day and in one race all four riders did a full two laps side by side without any of them having to back off - which is interesting as one of them was Thorpy!!! For new Hull fans that was back in the days when he didn't hit the tapes every other race! Certainly can't think of any circuit in this country where you could do that now???

I'd hate to see what you call the riders you don't like!!!

No actual experience of these riders but my opinion for the hell of it... I think Craven qualifies in our little baton passing list. Two world titles - and probably slightly unlucky to only be that - in the years of Briggs, Moore and Fundin puts him up there in my eyes. I think Bjorn Knutsson must come close to being that standard aswell. How do you 'oldies' (I'm turning 30 very soon so just enjoy anybody being older than me right now!!!) think either Craven or Knutsson would have fared against Mauger and Olsen if they'd come along in the 70's??? I know both Mauger and Olsen were genuine class but was the top end, 'World Class', competition as tough in these years??? A couple of very good years for Michanek and Peter Collins apart it just doesn't seem as competitive to me. I think a couple of riders like Ken McKinlay, who nobody mentions in things like this, could well have ranked much higher but they possibly peaked alongside the strongest final fields ever. As ever hard to compare but things just look a little easier - still, you can only beat who is there to beat of course. I think it's hard to argue that Fundin-Briggs-Moore-Craven-Knutsson were not the greatest 5 to race in the same era. Possibly the could have been run close if the mid 80's would have been able to give us Lee-Penhall-Carter-Gundersen-Nielsen???

You forgot to start with Duggan Shoddy! Why does it break down? Nielsen - Rickardsson seems ok as the latest link. Rickardsson 1994 World Champ, Nielsen 1995. There was an overlap there. And Rickardsson is currently leading the Grand Prix standings. Maybe Crump to follow but a bit early to say. Sorry - as ever!!! I think there was a bit of a gap for me between Duggan and Young whereas the others all seem to just about cross over. Just think Nielsen was at his best in the 80's. He only won the one title after 89 although he was still riding well and Rickardsson didn't really hit that level until he won in 98. I think a fit Jan O. would have properly bridged this gap.

I have to agree with this one. Of the 5 finals from 90 to 94 I think he was more than capable of winning at least three of them. I have a sneaky feeling he could have taken one or two of the early GP's aswell with Rickardsson not yet dominant - the performances of Nielsen, Knudsen and Ermolenko who were edging past their best at this stage without being properly replaced (sorry Hamill and Hancock, I may be being a bit harsh) suggest these could even have been his best years. In terms of all time greats I think there is a flow from Young-Moore-Fundin-Briggs-Craven-Mauger-Olsen-Penhall-Gundersen-Nielsen which breaks down until we get to Rickardsson-Crump now. Without doubt Jonsson and Ermolenko are world class and without injuries who knows but I think Pedersen would have been the man to fill this gap with several titles. Had it not been for injuries I seriously think he could well be making a few top 7's on this thread. Plus a bloody great rider to watch to top it all off!!!

Thank you Shoddy. Have I convinced you about Vic Duggan yet!!!??? Top 7 ever in order of world titles won...Vic Huxley? I mean my personal top 7 but I ranked them in the order of the titles they won rather than my 1 to 7. Maybe better punctuation would have been..."My top 7 ever, ranked in order of world titles won" Purely on the 'big stage' stats I can't see the numbers to back up Vic Duggan but I believe his record in league form was pretty convincing to say the least!!! I know riders can only beat who is around to beat and his peak years came in a bad period to judge him - I'm just going on world final (and equivalent)!!! He only won the once and made the rostrum that one time. Sorry but I am a numbers guy after all!!! Do you really think Tom Farndon was that good or is it a bit of an emotional choice??? Either way he qualifies as an all time great in my book, even from the sadley curtailed career he had - you know I have a soft spot for another rider and I find it very hard to judge just how good he was!!! Whatever there are some more dubious names mentioned in this thread than any of these!!!

Best I've ever seen... 1. Hans Nielsen 2. Erik Gundersen 3. Kenny Carter 4. Jan O Pedersen 5. Gary Havelock 6. Tommy Knudsen 7. Sam Ermolenko The Danish WTC side at their best had Nielsen, Gundersen, Knudsen and Pedersen which has to be my best ever real team I've seen. My stab at top 7 ever (in order of world titles won) ... 1. Ivan Mauger 2. Ove Fundin 3. Tony Rickardsson 4. Hans Nielsen 5. Barry Briggs 6. Ronnie Moore 7. Vic Huxley Particularly tough on Gundersen, Olsen and Craven who would make my personal top 10. Can't not mention Vic Duggan and Tom Farndon just to keep Norbold smiling! Best rider never to win the world title - Jason Crump, so far! Best rider never to finish higher than 5th - Kenny Carter (I admit I just put this one in to get a mention for my favourite rider) Honourable mentions to a couple of riders who may get overlooked purely for being from an older generation - Bluey Wilkinson, Jack Parker, Jack Milne, Wilbur Lamoreaux and Bjorn Knutsson. I think these all have a decent claim to be top 7 when they were at the peak of their form.

Hans Nielsen on the second day of the two day final in Holland (was in 87?) would have given 74 Michanek a run for his money.

Can I have a fantasy world final? 1. Barry Briggs 2. Peter Craven 3. Ove Fundin 4. Erik Gundersen 5. Vic Huxley 6. Bjorn Knutsson 7. Ivan Mauger 8. Jack Milne 9. Ronnie Moore 10. Hans Nielsen 11. Ole Olsen 12. Jack Parker 13. Bruce Penhall 14. Tony Rickardsson 15. Bluey Wilkinson 16. Jack Young I'll go for Jan O Pedersen and Anders Michanek (1974 final form) at reserve. Mentions to Peter Collins, Vic Duggan (dominant over a couple of years after the war but I don't think enough evidence to put him in for me???) and Jason Crump (just to see if he could still come second in this lot?!?). Anybody disagree???

I went for a bit from near the start of 84 and through 85. Sad to lose it but Bradford was not a bad replacement track for the racing and was as near to travel for me! Kenny Carter Neil Evitts Steve Baker Steve Finch Eric Monaghan Rod Hunter Kurt Hansen etc... great memories.

It is a hazy memory but I remember at Bradford sometime in the late 80's a heat 15 with the scores tied at 42-42 against Coventry. Coventry had Knudsen and Tatum in and Bradford had Havelock (and someone else I can't remember)! Coventry were in a 5-1 all the way and team riding side by side, on the last bend Havvy went miles wide on the big open space at Odsal. It looked like he'd really blown it but he straightened up and took them both on the run in. A 45-45 result but it felt like a win as we weren't the best team at the time and really looked like losing the match all the way through. I remember Ermolenko doing something similar as a guest for Coventry to win a match for them but have wiped this from my memory!!!

Some valid points and as a fan of one of the bigger PL clubs who have no interest in going top flight (rightly so at the moment in my opinion) I think the Elite needs to get its house in better order. The grading system is a way of trying to do this and well done for that. The fact that rich teams will start the season with an advantage though cannot be seen as a good thing. We will just move towards a scenario like Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal in football. Certain teams will have their pick of the cream and after those it will all be about keeping costs down and the sport running at their club. The grading system looks to cause exactly the same scenario that dropping the points limit in the PL would have. Improving riders averaging the top end of a grade will be like gold dust and top sides will overpay them to get them. Costs won't be cut for team that win things and other sides will not be on a level playing field. It is always slightly like this anyway (and why not?) but a reduced points limit and a cap on heat leader strength has exactly the same effect but at least all sides start roughly equal. If this just stays for one season then how can more teams look to move up next year and keep expanding the EL. If it is not a success they won't do it and the top teams appear to be ensuring they will stay that way so why would a side like Sheffield want to move up? Be a successful PL side with good income or a mid to lower EL side with at best the same? I hope it succeeds as I think all teams in all sports should be aspiring to get as high as they can and this is not happening in speedway at the moment. Fingers crossed but this doesn't look like the solution.

Points taken. Being a PL supporter and very happy to remain so it is true that the EL needs to make itself attractive. A team like Sheffield should want to be there and we as fans should really want to be going for the top title but I would say the massive majority are happy where we are. Hopefully these changes can be a first step to that shift in perception happening. I can't see why a points limit reduction, with a limit on heat leader points to make sure they are spread fairly, would not have achieved the same aims but also with less chance of strong or weak sides. The sides that can pay the young improving riders at the top of the grade bands, who will be like gold dust, will dominate and others will miss out in a big way. It is surely the same as when the PL were considering dropping the points limit and promoters said it would make lower riders more valuable and overall not lower any costs. The sides willing to keep paying as before will win matches, the sides needing lower costs will lose matches. With regard to the strength it will be interesting to see what teams look like in terms of the points limit of old??? By the way plenty of EL teams started using their top men as soon as we got to the knockout stages of the BL Cup!!! The most important thing is that speedway carries on and is successful but differing team strengths and ****** off fans being ignored on things like Its-a-knockout Jokers is surely not the way. Compared to 10 or 15 years ago speedway is a much stronger sport (by miles) and I hope this can continue and that we don't take a step back with any of these changes. Fingers crossed...

Valid points but this is just a way to drop the limit in the EL without admitting to it. It looks to me like many EL teams will be no stronger than those tracked in the BL Cup last year which EL promoters claimed were fair and even with PL sides. The BL Cup being a classic example of everybody being able to see the mis-match strength and being completely right at the end of it all meaning a great idea gets dropped after 1 year! It is just a way of weakening the overall strenth of the league whilst the 'big' teams will still be able to offer better terms to better riders in each grade and be much stronger as per usual. I see the point you made but there are much more transparent and fairer ways of doing this surely?!?

As I said I actually had the experience of watching a KOC match last year with friends who were not into speedway and the Crazy Joker rule was pretty hard to explain. Not only is it a joke but the real outrage is that nearly all fans didn't like it but they have brought it in to everything anyway. When are the people at the top going to get their heads out of their backsides and listen to the paying public? Unless it improves the sport then just leave well alone.

If anybody wants to post rumours of my affair with Kate Moss they can do - if anybody knows her phone number my mail address is IBLOODYWISH@veryhotmail.com

Oy Shoddy! Leave Dogs out of it. They are much too intelligent and lovely animals to be mentioned in that sentence. I agree with the rest of it though. I think you'll find that the part of the dogs anatomy that I was referring to is most adequate in this context!

A couple of my mates came down for a KOC meeting last year and trying to explain the Joker rules to them was embarassing. Good to see the fans being listened to after, as far as I'm aware, about 90% thought it was a terrible idea and I would have thought from what I read that over half the promoters thought the same thing??? Even Leeds United supporters must be laughing about the shambles the top men in speedway are creating. What a ridiculous bunch or idiots, this has to go down as the most outrageous level of ignorance seen in sport since...no can't think of anything else up there??? Self moderated outburst to finish - "What a load of ******* **** **** ******* ******* dogs ***** ****".

Look at Ben Wilson at Sheffield this year. Riding last year at number 7 last term to give him the easier rides meant he gets to race the opposite number 7 three times and number 6 twice. He has averaged over 3 and may be left out for a 3 pointer next year if his average doesn't fit. Had he ridden at 6 he would have met each reserve one time less, probably averaged under 3 and been more likely to keep his place this year. It is right that riders like Ben ride at 7 to help build confidence but the suggested change would distort true averages even more and make it harder for young Brits who don't come in and set the league on fire in their first season. It is good that these ideas are thrown around but I would have thought that a true look at this one suggests it is not that great???

Penistone is also just on the outskirts of Sheffield - at the end of Penistone Road oddly enough!

I thought of that one aswell oddly enough. Seem to remember Mr Bostin suddenly developing a similar style to Simon Cross as he kept appearing as a reserve replacement. Of course they were John Bostin's leathers so it had to be him didn't it???

How many times does it need to be said??? Talk about the speedway. I'm sure you know nothing about what actually happened so why voice an opinion on it? Kenny was a great rider - what happened was terrible but is none of my business or for me to judge so I keep my mouth shut. Some of you should perhaps try it sometime. MODERATOR: I think we'll end this discussion out of respect for the Carter family

I never saw him but I always think Ove Fundin appeared to do it in a time when there were other riders around who won multiple titles. I just think his 5 seems more impressive than his rivals. In amongst his 5 other winners were Barry Briggs, Ronnie Moore and Peter Craven who all won more than one title. Ivan did have Ole Olsen around and has won 6 titles so it is hard to argue if people call him the greatest. Rickardsson is absolute quality and I have a feeling he will end up winning more than anybody. But I have said it before and I'll say it again now - I don't believe he has had any genuine and consistent 100% world class opposition. Also it is easier for him to win, as the top rider of his day, because of the GP series. All that said he can only win what is put in front of him and he's done it 5 times already so he has to be considered as an all time great. I think Hans Nielsen is the other name I would really put up there as I think he missed a few titles because his time crossed with Erik Gundersen. Also he seemed to go off the boil for a few years after Erik's crash which may have just affected the mental strength which you needed for a one off title. He would surely have done better with a GP series and he was also the best rider in 1983 when a German rider won in Germany before doing nothing else in speedway - draw your own conclusions??? Barry Briggs won 4 and surely Erik Gundersen, who was perhaps the best one-off meeting rider I ever saw, would have won more if not for his injury. I think Hans was the master professional but Erik always appeared to have more natural talent to me. Throw in Michael Lee as possibly the best natural talent ever and Bruce Penhall - what would have happened if his time had crossed with Gundersen and Nielsen??? Basically I have completely avoided the question I think so I will do a 1 to 5, in the order I would place them - which I appreciate you might not agree with of course!!! Ove Fundin Hans Nielsen Ivan Mauger Tony Rickardsson Erik Gundersen PS: just popping my Dukes tinted glasses on - can I change my vote to Kenny Carter as the best rider never to win a world title?!?!?

We managed to agree on 5 of the 7 riders!!! You must have been going around the same time I have. Went to Halifax from 84, Bradford up to 1990 and then stopped going for a while. Picked up back at Sheffield a couple of years later not long after they started running again. If I had stuck with Bradford a bit longer I may have even agreed with Wiggy and Screen. Had to go for Sam though after his fantastic short spell when I started at Owlerton and Hans as he was the class rider over the years I watched top level speedway.

My boss can't manage to get me to come into work by 9.30 so you've no chance!!! Think I am going to try and work / skive from home later so I will stick some more teams on if I have time in my heavy schedule!!!