Shoddy

I remember Doug Wyer giving Neil Evitts a smack after he had him off during a race at the Shay - when they were on the same team! I seem to vaguely recall a test match at Halifax where all the other riders evidently didn't want to race with him; think Andy Smith ended up doing the honours. Evitts always seem fairly mild mannered but looked totally different on the bike in his early career before injuries seemed to take the edge of his aggression. Award for recent years at Sheffield has to go to Carl Stonehewer chasing Anders Henriksson, I think(?), around Owlerton with a spade in his hand after he'd had him off.

Brilliant summation Sandman. The final act of Kenny's life took no courage or guts whatsoever and crazy and selfish are unfortuntely about the best words we have to describe it but in reality don't even begin to cover it. I know people who have had harder lives than Kenny did and the easy way out would be to take their own life. The real guts and courage comes from facing life and dealing with it. Those people are true heroes that we should speak of in glowing terms with words such as courage and bravery and admire as great, strong people. I am just beginning to read the book now - had it ages but was finishing another book first. It's drawn me in already and I can hardly put it down. Kenny will always remain my first and biggest sporting hero and nothing will change that. He was frankly brilliant on a bike and is one of a short list of riders who really should have been world champion but never made it for a variety of reasons. However fearless and great a rider he was though you have to take account of the whole story of his life. Whatever your views that final act should be condemned for what it was - a cowardly act regardless of the reasons for it's happening.

It's an interesting way to look at it and possibly a valid view when looking at what cost probably the best rider in the world at that time the 82 title. Many still feel Penhall was at fault for the incident though (see the whole point of this thread) and as Carter's world final career ended at the age of 22 we never got see how he would have ridden as a mature rider (if he would have ever grown up of course) - not many riders got so near to the title twice by the age of 21 though. Perhaps those would have been his best years, perhaps not. The whole point I was making though is that this incident only ever cost Les Collins a chance at the title - as you have said. The idea that Les would definitely have won the title if the fall hadn't happened is just not true. He still had to get two wins against Carter and/or Penhall - whether you think he'd have done it is your call. I suspect I know what most people would say his chances were but anything can happen on a speedway track - it just happened to work in Penhall's favour on that day and Les never did enough to get another chance at it. Personally I like Les as a rider but every time this comes up a couple of people say it cost him the title when the truth is it cost him a chance but he still would have needed two wins against arguably the best two riders in the world at that time. Compared to Egon Muller the whole field were also-rans in 1983. Carter was still young, had 8 points from 3 rides and finished in joint 4th place, just 2 points behind the runner up so hardly a total disaster. You don't need to have met a rider to have seen or heard how talented they were do you? My point was that Carter had an ego too big for any rider! Michael Lee was ok?!? I'm sure there are a few riders who did more by that age to be honest. My point was that to say "three world final appearances isn't a lot" is a bit harsh and probably not fair. Many very good riders didn't achieve what he did on track, however obviously great his faults were, in much longer careers, Les Collins among them.

If you choose to think Collins would have beaten Carter and then Penhall again - or Carter twice that is your opinion, which is fine, although I can't say I agree. The point I was making is that it is not as clear as saying Les Collins was robbed of the title - it was taken out of his hands but no set of results would have handed him the win without a lot of work still to do. I can't even see the point or relevance of this comment? Possibly right with that first bit - if only because his ego was probably too big for the talent of Peter Craven, Michael Lee or Kelly Moran! Carter appeared and finished in the top 5 of 3 consecutive world finals by the age of 22. He also added in two runners up medals in WTC finals, World Pairs Champion and runner up plus 5 rostrum finishes in British, Overseas and Intercontinental finals in this time. His next two seasons were decimated by injury although he still nearly made the 84 final with a broken leg and was one of the favourites in 85 before he broke his leg again - just before the final that was being held in his own back yard. Mind you he still found time to add two British Championships (one with a badly broken leg) and another runners up medal in the Pairs. I don't think I've heard anyone call him the 'best ever' and I await your long list of riders who can better those very average achievements!

I said this when this topic came up before but the story that 'Les Collins was robbed of the title' is just not that clear cut. Had Penhall only finished second and Carter third all three would have been tied on 10 points with Collins and Carter still to meet in their last race which would have been a very different clash as Kenny had lost it by then. Even if Collins had won it would have been a run off with Penhall. If Carter came second and Penhall third then Kenny would have been a point ahead with the pair of them still to meet. Collins would then have still had to beat Carter twice to win the title. Had Penhall and Carter not been playing silly buggers anyway they would almost certainly have beaten Peter Collins. Has things worked out differently Collins may have had a shot at the title but to say he should have won it doesn't make any sense at all to me. We had this whole discussion before and the slight majority seemed to think Penhall was at fault for the incident and lucky to stay in. It was a very split discussion though, even after all these years. A bigger majority agreed Carter should have ridden a cleverer race and avoided the whole problem, had he just backed off he could more than likely have got second place back - either way it would have still made this race one of the most talked about of all time although for the right reasons! I think the 3 main facts are... 1. There was defiite contact. 2. Penhall was the one who moved line. He came out and his bike took Carter's front wheel from him. I am not suggesting that solves the question either way though! For the second point did Penhall really have much choice but to drift after the line he'd taken into the corner anyway? Surely Carter knew he was coming and should have left room so it wasn't an issue? Whether there was intentional slide or a flick of the wheel is down to you to decide. For me (as a confessed Halifax fan in the 80's!) Penhall was to blame and I'd have liked to see what decision would have been made had it been two different riders or at another track. I also have to add that only one rider was genuinely using his brain in that race which brings us on to the third, and most important, indisputable fact about this meeting... 3. Bruce Penhall is the 1982 World Champion!

It was a cracking meeting. Always remember chuckling as I got Tatum in the sweepstake and my Mum ended up with some fella by the name of Jonsson who had little chance of winning. Wasn't smiling quite so much on the way home but it was a good meeting with a deserving winner. Not sure if it beat the 86 final - I really do miss Odsal sometimes, surely one of the best tracks speedway has ever been raced on.

I must have been drinking that month! I'll get it and read it!

I don't recall seeing anything on Steve Lawson but I would be interested to read about him. Seem to remember several years where he really held Glasgow together in the NL and a few meetings where he scored over half of the total team points. He was a top performer for many years at that level but never moved up - that I know of - and I'd love to know why he stuck with Glasgow. He was the Matt Le Tissier of speedway!

...and there was I looking forward to a piece on Gianni 'etc etc etc' Famari!!! I very rarely post in here but am enjoying your magazine greatly. Only started going to speedway in 1984 so missed much of the era you cover but am a real history buff and have enjoyed reading every issue I've seen so far . Great to learn more about riders like Ivan Mauger who I didn't see, Peter Collins and Chris Morton who were past their peak when I started going and especially my first speedway hero Kenny Carter. Also great to remind myself just how good Hans Nielsen was - I still think he was better than Tony Rickardsson! Keep up the great work.

Just had a look at the site - great work and a fitting tribute to the riders giving their life for the sport we all love. I didn't know Craig Hodgson had died - remember him riding for Bradford for a while and he was a promising rider so was sad to see this. Also didn't really see much of Mark Steel as he only rode for a short period but shocked to see the story of his disappearance. Biggs, Craven, Carter, Charles, Farndon, Lofqvist, Sanders and Wigg would have made quite some team and it's a shame to see them listed for a variety of reasons. Keep up the good work and let's hope there are no new names to add for a while.

From a neutral point of view, as I disliked both Hans and Erik equally being a Bradford fan(!), I would have to say Nielsen was the better rider for me. That's not taking anything away from Gundersen who was pretty special but of the two I would have rather seen Nielsen riding for my side. Hans is right up there with Ivan, Tony and Ove in the very top bracket. 3 times winner and 3 times runner up (2 of which only came after a run off) from 84 to 89. Only Fundin and Mauger have put together such good runs in the top 2. He then had a couple of quiet years and looked like he'd lost a bit of egde before he came back to challenge. In 93 he was perhaps unlucky not to at least get another run off chance although Ermolenko was perhaps the better rider on the day. Desperately unlucky in 94 although he did get a run off chance he was the best rider and should have won it. Champion in 95 and just pipped by Hamill in 96. 10 top 2 finishes which isn't matched by Mauger, Rickardsson or Fundin! Pretty damn good however you look at it!

Always good to see a picture of just how classy Hans Nielsen was on a bike. Have a look on the 'Owlerton clips' thread in the Premier League section for a brilliant race of Hans against Shawn Moran. Keep an eye out for a young Sean Wilson in third place aswell!!!

Lance King was still pretty good for Bradford I always thought. That team in 86 could have been one of the all time great sides if not for what happened with Kenny Carter. Have to say I agree that after his 3rd place in the 84 final Lance could surely have gone on to be a genuine top line rider. Also remember Randy Green from Bradford days. Again he was OK but never looked like breaking through beyond second string to be honest. Sheffield had Bobby Hedden over when it was all one league. He showed some promised but Sheffield weren't able to carry riders at that time so he went home and never tried across here again. He still rides over there and does OK so maybe he should have given it another go. You could argue that Chris Manchester was pretty unsuccessful in the end after looking like another potential world class star following Ermolenko, Correy, Hancock and Hamill???

All before my time unfortunately but I do take an interest in the history of the great riders. I'd love to read more about some of the top stars from the years before official world finals and those who missed out because of the war years. Frank Arthur, Tom Farndon and Vic Huxley look pretty special purely from the stats! It's hard to believe Jack Parker, Eric Langton, Cordy Milne, Wilbur Lamoreaux, Eric Chitty, Bill Kitchen and Vic Duggan never won a world final between them for various reasons! If finals had started before 1936 and not stopped for 10 years a couple of these names would surely be on the roll of honour! Of course Jack Milne also who has finished 1st and 2nd in the years before the way, dropping just one point in two finals - pretty impressive stuff!!! I would love to read more about some of these truly great riders who it's such a shame many speedway fans today have never heard of. Surely riders such as Huxley, Parker and Jack Milne would be ranked in the top 20 or 30 all time riders and it's a shame more is not generally known about them.

As a Bradford fan in the late 80's I have some memories of 3rd heat leaders/second strings who used to love the track repeatedly turning up and stuffing us!!! Don't think anybody will top the days or Riss and Castagna doing it for Ipswich but Rick seemed to like the place. Tommy K was pretty special everywhere and that Danish WTC side was, in my eyes, the best ever. Can't see anybody beating the Nielsen-Gundersen-Knudsen-Pedersen team (just before Erik's sad accident) wherever you look in the history books. Shame Tommy never won the world final as he was definitely good enough, there were a few riders at that time who were genuine world class but through injuries and for various other reasons didn't do it. It still grates with me that we never saw a load of 1980's finals with Penhall v Carter v Knudsen v Gundersen v Nielsen v Sanders v Lee and throw in the Moran brothers, Ermolenko, Pedersen and Jonsson for good measure - WOW!!!

Hans never seemed to have a problem beating the **** out of our team at Bradford either - not a bad sized track!!!

I'm with SCB on this one. I know you need to build in standard of opposition and if you saw the riders it helps because you can use that as an argument. If I wanted a totally honest opinion however I would rather it came from someone who had never seen any of the riders. I am a statto by the way!!! I truly believe that a completely unbiased look at the results is a most effective way of viewing this kind of thing which excludes all bias. For me Kenny Carter is one of the all time greats but he never finished higher than 5th place in a world final - surely the best rider never to make a top 4 however you look at it??? I only know this from the fact that I saw him ride - and he was my favourite so I have to admit severe bias! I'm sure other people could come up with riders they say were better who never even made a final - did some Eastbourne fan just say Bobby Schwartz? You can say Fundin, Craven, Moore and Briggs dominated because the opposition was made from the same riders each year who weren't good enough but you could also argue that with Knutsson, Nordin, Plechanov, McKinlay etc being so consistent it made up the toughest finals ever and to win 13 of 14 between 4 riders makes them the best lot ever. Mauger came along when Fundin and Briggs were past it. What kind of opposition were people like Waloszek, Persson, Plech, Szczakiel and Woryna. Even the other 'greats' of the time like Michanek and Collins were only up there for 2 years and they had the beating of Mauger when there were. Olsen was hit and miss but when he was on form he beat Mauger by a mile with 15 point maximums - apart from the year Jessup should have won it!!! When Mauger and Olsen won from 77 to 79 a teenage kid in the shape of Michael Lee was matching them - talented or not they should have been too good for him. Counter argument is that speedway suddenly had a load of riders who were world class so it stopped a small group dominating for a decade at a time which makes Ivan even more special to have done so and nobody else got near him. With Fundin, Briggs, Moore and Craven nobody could stand out and dominate like Ivan did. Bruce Penhall fell in a transition period where Mauger and Olsen had gone and before Gundersen and Nielsen came in so winning finals was easy surely?!? Second place went to Olsen (past it) in 81 and Les Collins (never made another world final) in 82 which hardly seems top quality in terms of world finals!!! How many other riders have raced in 3 finals and won two of them - Mauger and Fundin didn't win until their 3rd attempt! No two riders have dominated like Nielsen and Gundersen and are you telling me Ermolenko, Pedersen, Knudsen, Josson and Wigg were not good opposition? Had Erik not been injured who knows what he could have done. Rickardsson has had the GP's which make sure the top rider in the world is champion every year and until Crump came along who was realistically an decent challenger. Losing out to Mark Loram and Nicki Pedersen over a whole series doesn't make him look like the all time great to me? The other side says he won a one off final and the fact that GP's mean the best rider becomes champion says he definitely has every attribute to prove beyond doubt he is a truly dominant rider as opposed to being able to up his game for one big day each year!!! There you have it - argue whichever way you will!!! I think you can only judge riders on their results and not the standard of opposition. If they are much better than everyone else that should go in their favour and not against them surely??? My own 'opinion' (I prefer fact to opinion but I can't seem to stop having them!) is that winning finals when the same riders are all up there and showing repeated and genuine world class standards is pretty damn impressive though so I can't even agree with myself. One interesting, some may say geeky fact, is that if you exclude any other rider who won more than once to give each individual dominance at the time then the all time list looks like this... Fundin & Briggs - 9 Nielsen - 8 Mauger - 7 Rickardsson - 6 R Moore - 5 Olsen, Gundersen, Craven, Knutsson, Ermolenko - 4 F Williams, J.O.Pedersen, Crump - 3 J Young, S Waterman, A Lawson, B Jansson, Michanek, P Collins, Penhall - 2 Potential winners who were stopped by the greats - Craig Boyce, Eric Williams (brother of Freddie), Tomasz Gollob, Brian Crutcher, Arthur Forrest, Wally Green, Sverre Harrfeldt, Edward Jancarz, Gordon Kennett, Lance King, Tommy Knudsen, Les Collins, Jimmy Nilsen, Olle Nygren, Bob Oakley, Peter Moore, Bernt Persson, Zenon Plech, Igor Plechanov, Soren Sjosten, Pawel Waloszek and Simon Wigg! For those of you that have read the whole essay - sorry and thanks!

He won the first GP series as he was the most consistent rider and he was getting well past his peak when he did it. Was also the best rider in my opinion the year after but Hamill nicked it with a couple of great performances. I think the one offs suited Gundersen but a GP series would have been much better for Nielsen. Without Gundersens injury I think these two would have dominated through the early 90's aswell (with Pedersen and perhaps Per Jonsson being up there?) but Hans seemed to lose a bit of edge for a few years after. Tomasz Gollob aswell on that one!

Yes and no!!! You are right but I mean consecutive finishes. He as only been in the top 2 twice in a row during that period. Fundin and Nielsen are down as 6 because they were in the top two for 6 finals in a row and Mauger the same for 7. Should have explained what I meant better! Also spotted a glaring error in the 4 years in the top 3 theory which I'm about to correct - how could I have missed Crump?!?!

Fundin - 10 consecutive rostrum appearances (6 in top 2). 4 wins, 3 seconds, 3 thirds. Missed out on 11 due to suspension, before winning the year after! Mauger - 8 consecutive rostrum appearances (7 in top 2). 4 wins, 3 seconds, 1 third. Also won it on two other occasions of course. Rickardsson - 7 consecutive rostrum appearanes (and counting! only 2 in top 2). 4 wins, 1 second and 2 thirds. Has another win and a second place. Nielsen - 6 consecutive rostrum appearances (all in top 2). 3 wins, 3 seconds. Also added 4 more in a separate run (all in top 2 again) with 1 win and 3 seconds. Added two other 3rd places aswell. Crump - 4 conescutive rostrum appearance (and counting, all in top 2). 1 win, 3 seconds. Ronnie Moore, Barry Briggs and Tomasz Gollob have all been on three consecutive rostrums - as far as I can tell that is the lot for 3+??? (...and for Norbold... Vic Huxley - 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd in the first four Star Riders Championships. Wilbur Lamoreaux - 2nd and 3rd in 1937 & 38 and had qualified in 3rd place for the 1939 final which never took place. Jack Milne had also qualified for this final after finishing 1st and 2nd in the previous years. Eric Chitty - 1st, 1st, 1st during the war years. Bill Kitchen - 1st, 2nd, 2nd from 1945 to 1947.)

Josh Auty - or is his name a little out of place in the years gone by section??? Most naturally talented riders I've seen for the club I supported have to be Gary Havelock, before his bad injury, and Lee Complin. Erik Gundersen had awesome natural talent and I have to mention Kelly Moran, Sam Ermolenko and Jan O Pedersen aswell. Reading about riders I didn't see I can only repeat what has already been said that Tom Farndon was supposed to be pretty exceptional, Peter Craven obviously wasn't too bad either and how good Michael Lee could have been we will never know!!! Haven't read all postings but has anybody mentioned Bruce Penhall? Still feel annoyed we never got to see mid 80's finals with Penhall v Carter v Lee v Gundersen v Nielsen v Sanders - how good would they have been???

Vote added - I think you can guess which way I went. Stupid - nuff said.

I think it is slightly flawed as you go down the order but at the top end it highlights the best riders over the series regardless of how the points or consistency worked (ignoring wild cards of course). I think it's hard to argue with the numbers for the champion. In my opinion Nielsen was the best rider in 96. 2000 was pretty well matched and nobody stood out but any one of Gollob, Hamill, Loram or Rickardsson would have a case as best rider in that year. I think Rickardsson and Crump were the best two of last year aswell as these numbers suggest. In 97 Hamill made a late run and the points just favoured the way his form went over Nielsen and in 2000 and 2003 Loram and Pedersen benfitted from the format rewarding consistency across the series above several good meeting and a couple of bad ones. All your sites are very interesting mate - keep up the good work.

Or Vic Huxley - you'd think there were no good riders before the mid 30's!!!

Interesting (if you're a sad statto) to add up the forum dream team! There is always a bias to more recent riders and many have listed the best they have seen rather than all time but it's a pretty good side!!! Taking people's 7's - all time rather than best seen where there was more than one list - comes up with the following... 1. Tony Rickardsson - 22 2. Ivan Mauger - 20 3. Hans Nielsen - 17 4. Erik Gundersen - 12 5. Barry Briggs - 11 6. Bruce Penhall - 10 7. Ove Fundin & Ole Olsen - 9 Just behind with 7 are Carter, Craven, Jonsson and Moore (Ronnie rather than Andy)!!!