Shoddy

It is poor sportsmanship but Ward is very young and has a lot to learn and he was denied the PLRC title by home track advantage whatever anybody says. Perhaps he should spend more time looking at how to pick the right gate though?!? As for Proctor, who I'd like to say rode excellently and is a top prospect, perhaps we should give in and remove Ricky from the results? Well done Ty - you came second! Serious this type of 'poor' attitude is probably lacking in some of our kids to be honest! Where the hell do the Aussies find this string of riders with no real league setup whilst we fail with the Conference League in place? It can only be down to attitude - I'm just thankful Woffinden decided not be join them, can you imagine Holder, Woffinden, Ward & Proctor in the World Cup for the next however many years?

I'm not sure if anybody has mentioned this at all - haven't seen it said - but does anyone think the choice of gates cost a couple of riders? On points scored gate 1 was the best in the meeting but as it went on the outside ones had more points scored from them. The numbers alone suggested there wasn't much between 1, 3 and 4. If it had been my choice I'd have picked in the order of 3, 1 and then 4 but obviously I'm not a rider and I'm sure different people prefer different start positions too. The one thing I could see for sure was that gate 2 had been no good all night but sure enough Compton and Ward both picked it with second choice. If they'd gone for 3 or 4 does anybody think the end result would have been different in either/both races? Is it time all riders have a statto geek in their corner along with a mechanic?!? I can't see how everyone has managed to drag out the argument about the home advantage issue yet again - it's all been resolved before hasn't it? * Of course most home winners only win because it's on their track * We all know these events should be on a neutral track * Until fans travel in numbers to neutral tracks to support the idea it won't change and history says we don't do it. I have tended to go to big meetings on my local track but rarely travel to away venues for them so I can hardly grumble about it. Attendances would suggest the majority are in the same position so I'm afraid the 'morally correct' minority will just have to suffer. Tough but it's the way of the world I'm afraid - many of us will be in the same position after the next general election! And anybody who doesn't congratulate (or who boos) the winner of any title, regardless of home advantage, is either under 12 years of age (although I'd like to say I'd give my 3 year old son a telling off if he did it) or is a few sandwiches short of the full picnic.

I remember Doug Wyer giving Neil Evitts a smack after he had him off during a race at the Shay - when they were on the same team! I seem to vaguely recall a test match at Halifax where all the other riders evidently didn't want to race with him; think Andy Smith ended up doing the honours. Evitts always seem fairly mild mannered but looked totally different on the bike in his early career before injuries seemed to take the edge of his aggression. Award for recent years at Sheffield has to go to Carl Stonehewer chasing Anders Henriksson, I think(?), around Owlerton with a spade in his hand after he'd had him off.

Brilliant summation Sandman. The final act of Kenny's life took no courage or guts whatsoever and crazy and selfish are unfortuntely about the best words we have to describe it but in reality don't even begin to cover it. I know people who have had harder lives than Kenny did and the easy way out would be to take their own life. The real guts and courage comes from facing life and dealing with it. Those people are true heroes that we should speak of in glowing terms with words such as courage and bravery and admire as great, strong people. I am just beginning to read the book now - had it ages but was finishing another book first. It's drawn me in already and I can hardly put it down. Kenny will always remain my first and biggest sporting hero and nothing will change that. He was frankly brilliant on a bike and is one of a short list of riders who really should have been world champion but never made it for a variety of reasons. However fearless and great a rider he was though you have to take account of the whole story of his life. Whatever your views that final act should be condemned for what it was - a cowardly act regardless of the reasons for it's happening.

It's an interesting way to look at it and possibly a valid view when looking at what cost probably the best rider in the world at that time the 82 title. Many still feel Penhall was at fault for the incident though (see the whole point of this thread) and as Carter's world final career ended at the age of 22 we never got see how he would have ridden as a mature rider (if he would have ever grown up of course) - not many riders got so near to the title twice by the age of 21 though. Perhaps those would have been his best years, perhaps not. The whole point I was making though is that this incident only ever cost Les Collins a chance at the title - as you have said. The idea that Les would definitely have won the title if the fall hadn't happened is just not true. He still had to get two wins against Carter and/or Penhall - whether you think he'd have done it is your call. I suspect I know what most people would say his chances were but anything can happen on a speedway track - it just happened to work in Penhall's favour on that day and Les never did enough to get another chance at it. Personally I like Les as a rider but every time this comes up a couple of people say it cost him the title when the truth is it cost him a chance but he still would have needed two wins against arguably the best two riders in the world at that time. Compared to Egon Muller the whole field were also-rans in 1983. Carter was still young, had 8 points from 3 rides and finished in joint 4th place, just 2 points behind the runner up so hardly a total disaster. You don't need to have met a rider to have seen or heard how talented they were do you? My point was that Carter had an ego too big for any rider! Michael Lee was ok?!? I'm sure there are a few riders who did more by that age to be honest. My point was that to say "three world final appearances isn't a lot" is a bit harsh and probably not fair. Many very good riders didn't achieve what he did on track, however obviously great his faults were, in much longer careers, Les Collins among them.

If you choose to think Collins would have beaten Carter and then Penhall again - or Carter twice that is your opinion, which is fine, although I can't say I agree. The point I was making is that it is not as clear as saying Les Collins was robbed of the title - it was taken out of his hands but no set of results would have handed him the win without a lot of work still to do. I can't even see the point or relevance of this comment? Possibly right with that first bit - if only because his ego was probably too big for the talent of Peter Craven, Michael Lee or Kelly Moran! Carter appeared and finished in the top 5 of 3 consecutive world finals by the age of 22. He also added in two runners up medals in WTC finals, World Pairs Champion and runner up plus 5 rostrum finishes in British, Overseas and Intercontinental finals in this time. His next two seasons were decimated by injury although he still nearly made the 84 final with a broken leg and was one of the favourites in 85 before he broke his leg again - just before the final that was being held in his own back yard. Mind you he still found time to add two British Championships (one with a badly broken leg) and another runners up medal in the Pairs. I don't think I've heard anyone call him the 'best ever' and I await your long list of riders who can better those very average achievements!

I said this when this topic came up before but the story that 'Les Collins was robbed of the title' is just not that clear cut. Had Penhall only finished second and Carter third all three would have been tied on 10 points with Collins and Carter still to meet in their last race which would have been a very different clash as Kenny had lost it by then. Even if Collins had won it would have been a run off with Penhall. If Carter came second and Penhall third then Kenny would have been a point ahead with the pair of them still to meet. Collins would then have still had to beat Carter twice to win the title. Had Penhall and Carter not been playing silly buggers anyway they would almost certainly have beaten Peter Collins. Has things worked out differently Collins may have had a shot at the title but to say he should have won it doesn't make any sense at all to me. We had this whole discussion before and the slight majority seemed to think Penhall was at fault for the incident and lucky to stay in. It was a very split discussion though, even after all these years. A bigger majority agreed Carter should have ridden a cleverer race and avoided the whole problem, had he just backed off he could more than likely have got second place back - either way it would have still made this race one of the most talked about of all time although for the right reasons! I think the 3 main facts are... 1. There was defiite contact. 2. Penhall was the one who moved line. He came out and his bike took Carter's front wheel from him. I am not suggesting that solves the question either way though! For the second point did Penhall really have much choice but to drift after the line he'd taken into the corner anyway? Surely Carter knew he was coming and should have left room so it wasn't an issue? Whether there was intentional slide or a flick of the wheel is down to you to decide. For me (as a confessed Halifax fan in the 80's!) Penhall was to blame and I'd have liked to see what decision would have been made had it been two different riders or at another track. I also have to add that only one rider was genuinely using his brain in that race which brings us on to the third, and most important, indisputable fact about this meeting... 3. Bruce Penhall is the 1982 World Champion!

It's Thursday, it's Owlerton, it's raining. Pretty wet on the ground and still a light drizzle but the sun is out and if the track is not too bad and there is no more heavy rain forecast this should be OK. I will try and post if it opens up over the stadium anytime before about 7ish.

There is a qualification system though - not perfect but the top averaged teams at a certain date get to the final. It has been clealy shown there are issues with this but they can be ironed out with clear rules and deadlines on the Super7 website. With the exception of the wild card it has not been a case or picking and choosing who competes as far as I can see although some judgement has been applied when assessing team changes. Nobody has an issue with the top averaged rider from each team going to the PLRC without qualifying rounds and this is the same as far as I can see. It would of course be better if every team could qualify as a 4 or pair but as you say these are meetings nobody wants to stage or watch. If you have 4TT meetings instead of pre season friendlies it means 3 riders from each team are not getting any track time and these are probably the 3 that most need it. The best solution may be to find a format that includes all the sides and run it as a finals day. The problem is some teams could travel quite a distance for a couple of races. It is also likely that the teams who miss out currently because their averages aren't high enough would be those to get knocked out first. The one obvious example where that would probably not be true of the 4TT is where Redcar are concerned which is the exact point we have been discussing! I think if anybody comes up with a better idea to include all the teams then promoters may take it up but just throwing insults without offering viable alternatives doesn't really take us forward. Also I am not sure where we have clearly seen any examples of bias once this season never mind several times although perhaps I have just misunderstood what you mean by that?

Are you saying you know that Redcar withdrew themselves?

"1st time round I decided they were seriously weakened so I replaced them with another team" I would say left out from the quote above unless I've missed your point? Surely nobody can disagree with the fact that from a purely logical point of view it makes no sense to leave one of the top 8 teams out of an 8 team competition can they? I'm sure Mr Chapman would rather have the strongest 8 available line ups taking part on the day but the way it has worked out has left him little option. I feel really sorry for Redcar but the alternative is to tell a team they are now not included in a final they have already turned up at the stadium once for because it rained on that day! I think he has taken the least embarassing option for the sport to be fair to him!

Not much to add to that really - agree with every single word! Only additional comment is I'd like to see Cooper up his away form too - brilliant at home this year but needs to get better elsewhere of we're looking at another on our ever lengthening list of Owlerton only riders. Think I'd keep Andre at number 1 as I can't see where we are going to get better from but Andre, Kyle, Complin, Joel and Cooper looks like a pretty good basis for a side next year.

I think everybody can see why Redcar fans are genuinely upset though - from a totally logical sense it makes no sense whatsoever to leave them out of the 4s. In a practical sense I can see why it has been done and whether you agree with it or not it has at least been explained now. That should really be the end of it but you have to admit in all honesty that anybody would be a bit miffed if circumstances had meant this had affected their club. Many Redcar fans are posting in a sensible way and most appear to have, probably rightly so, let it go but there are a few that don't seem able to do either of these. A couple of people have posted very bitter comments and the odd one has been downright offensive but I don't think it's fair to treat the whole club in the same way because of these 'supporters'. I know when Sheffield were left out of the original line up certain Tigers supporters found it impossible to act like grown ups but that didn't mean the rest of us didn't have a valid point to make. Let's all just treat individual idiots as just that and not see them as representative of any one club as a whole.

As someone who has criticised this series for several illogical decisions this year I have to applaud this press release and think any other right minded fan should. The release on the BSPA website was frankly awful bearing in mind all the problems there have been but this addresses them pretty much in full for me - with the exception of the bizarre wild card rule. This season has been a step forward for these events and as long as they learn from the mistakes and move on next year then everybody involved is to be applauded for at least trying. What the website needs is a clear set of rules on cut off dates and qualification criteria with regard to injuries, team changes and rain off dates. It's not hard to say when and how the provisional line up is decided, when the cut off for changes due to weakened sides is and that any restaging will contain the same clubs as the original regardless. There are two major points I think have to be changed and one minor one that is really just me being very pedantic. 1. Get rid of the wild cards - there is not the slightest behind these and it is the one issue that Mr Chapman has totally avoided dealing with at any stage. I can only assume one explanation for that. 2. For any serious talk of the British Final regaining it's old glamour it has to have a qualification system where EVERY rider has to get through at least one round and a much larger number of contenders can see a route to the final. I accept the financial reasons behind the old boys commercial bandwagon (or GP series as most seem to call it) that has replaced the old world final format but there is no excuse for the British Final not to be a competition wide open to all riders at the start of the season. 3. Drop the 'even' off the end of the series name! It's just not right - it says 'Super Seven even'! I told you it was pedantic but it is rubbish - we are not Americans after all! So as not to finish on a moan the last sentences from me should definitely be to say well done Mr Chapman on trying to improve things and for this honest and open press release. If you learn from the mistakes of this year I think you have the making of a great idea that is improving British Speedway.

Said it before the season and still saying it now that I wouldn't have personally had Ricky back at Sheffield this year. I'm not sure how much further he can go in the sport than the level he is at now. I have to admit he has definitely shown flashes that he can be a very good rider but he is doing his career no good by just 'Birko-ing' around Owlerton at the crucial stage of his development that he is at.