oldace

The snooker model that you now think is the way to go is the exact same as the GP system that you see as unfair. Half the field seeded as a result of an ongoing qualification process, stay in the top 16 by consistently performing in each previous tournament. Surely thats not fair and these players playing a tournament every fortnight should be dragged back to play against me in the working mens club in order to keep their ranking. How can O Sullivan, or any other for that matter call themselves world champion when they didn't even qualify to be there. Snooker will never be taken seriously until they get a "proper" world championship that every one can take part in

Up until 1961 there was no British Final, just a series of semis that qualified you for the Final. Because, for the first time ever, the 1961 final was not at Wembley the British Final was invented as a Wembley showcase event as a partial substitute. 62 and 63 reverted to the old way with no British Final, just semis, before the British Final as we now know it came into being in 1964. Of course we then had Briggo as British Champion in 1961 and no winner in the two intervening years as there was no event. Perhaps to honour Craven, or at least afford some continuity his overall semi final wins in those years were posthumously credited as British Final wins

Bast certainly had the talent, but no he would never have made it really big time quite simply because he didn't have the hunger and desire to do it. He liked the beach lifestyle to much to give it up and spend 8 months of the year pursuing bigger and better things. It simply wasn't in his make up to do it. Had a proper World Championship existed early in his career before he became too settled in California who knows

You are getting yourself all mixed up. The GP system has proper quaifiing rounds for all riders, always has. The old World Final in all the years it existed never once had an open to all qualifing process. It has been pointed out that riders were denied entry just because they didnt race in the League in this country, thats just one example, there are many more. The old system was good, I enjoyed many World Finals, but as regards finding a proper World Champion, no I am afraid not. Olsen and Michanek were among the best in the World in 76 but PC didn't have to beat the cause they were not there. PC himself was one of the best in 78 but Olsen didn't need to worry as he wasn't there. As good as Penhall was in 1981 why didn't he have to beat Collins at Wembley in your open to all World Final. None of the above is to say any of those champions were not worthy, they all were but had a proper World Championship existed back then maybe the years they won would have been different

Slot PC in there in 1981 as well, and that was just because the BSPA decided they wouldn't let him enter the qualifiing rounds even though he was top British League performer the previous year. Oh yes, open to all the old system wasn't it

That maybe the ideal but it has never been the case. Seeding for commercial reasons is less rife now than it was in the seventies. In 1970 the pole were seeded int 6 places in the final In 1973 They had 5 seeds In 1976 they had 4 In 1979 they dad 3 That equates to a over quarter of the field in those 4 finals being seeded It wasnt just the Poles though 1956 Craven seeded, Briggs in 58, Moore in 1960. Pete Collins was seeded straight to the inter continental final in 1977. The list goes on. The Brits had 4 guaranteed places in 1978, an injustice because we had probably 8 riders worthy of a place but the nature of qualyfiing that year meant it was impossible for more than 4 to make it. That was simply a commercial excercise, most of the Poles were of a standard no wher near good enough to merit seeding. It was recognised that a World Final without Craven, Briggo or Moore as defending champions was less of a commercial puller, hence they were given places. The GP now affords better chances to get into it than the old style event ever did where qualification depended on your country of birth and what league you raced in. Like I said on another thread, Peter Collins top of the averages in 1980 yet not allowed to enter in 1981 because he only wanted to race on the continent. There are hundreds of examples of the unfairness of the old system, it was riddled with faults and while what we have now may not be perfect it is a sight fairer to all than the old way was

Actually I believe Ivan would have won less under a GP system, not more. Almost certainly he wouldnt have won in 77 or 79. You could make a case for 73 but others like Olsen or Michanek were going as good as Ivan that year. Where do you think these extra years would have come from for your elite few to have accumalated all these extra titles, or do you think there were plenty of undeserved winners in that period. Incidentally seeding was rife in the old days, despite your assurances plenty riders were seeded to the world final, Briggo included. Equally the so called open to everyone world final was actually anything but. Plenty of antipodeans were denied entry by virtue of not racing here, Peter Collins was denied the right to attempt to qualify in 1981 and he had topped the league averages the year before. You talk about youngsters like Michael Lee not having the same opportunity today. In fact the opposite is true, if the GP had been in place Lee would certainly have been a wildcard in 1977 even if he hadn't qualified by right. Likewise Collins would have been a cert in 74, admittedly a year after his actual debut. Darcy Ward failed in the qualification process last year but was handed a place this year, OK other factors determined that he now cant accept that place Your arguments are getting flimsier and flimsier, Ivan Mauger active on the world stage 1957 to 1984, thats all wrong. The first two years of that he was no more than a conference league novice, he then spent 4 years back in the southern hemispher learning his trade before coming back as the Ivan we all know in 1963. He only had three years before he was making World Finals, he then made every one for the next 13 years only failing to make it in his last 2 active years when by now in his 40s. Briggo was likewise although he was seeded one year and nearly denied the chance to enter in another

Do you really believe that the state of British Speedway is down to the SGP? Yes it interferes with the the leagues but probably not much more that the old system did with World Final/Team Cup/Pairs and their various qualyfiers along the way. The state of British Speedway has its current problems rooted in the late 80s when the promoters hit upon the idea of trying to account for losing fans by upping admission to the remainder, leading to more lost fans and ultimately a product on offer no way commensurate with the admission cost. What the SGP does do though is give the sport 3 hours of prime time advertising on a Saturday night, instead of fighting against it King Canute style the sport should have embraced this and developed on the back of it. The problems now are probably irrecoverable, advertising campaigns are useless as anyone you may attract will never come back after seeing a typical league match, costs keep going up meaning more fans lost. Of course the above is not exclusive to the UK, Poland now seems to be on the same path and the current problems over here will hit them in a few years

The old World Final were every rider had a chance to qualify and no riders were given places, thats the myth but of course the reality was somewhat different. In 1970 the pole were seeded int 6 places in the final, yes 6!!! In 1973 They had 5 seeds In 1976 they had 4 In 1979 they dad 3 That equates to a over quarter of the field in those 4 finals being seeded It wasnt just the Poles though 1956 Craven seeded, Briggs in 58, Moore in 1960. Pete Collins was seeded straight to the inter continental final in 1977. The list goes on. The Brits had 4 guaranteed places in 1978, an injustice because we had probably 8 riders worthy of a place but the nature of qualyfiing that year meant it was impossible for more than 4 to make it. A bigger problem though was riders who were probably likely winners ending up not in the final, Olsen 76, Collins 78 throgh bad luck in 1 meeting of a season where they excelled. Now as to the "fact" that it is easier to stay in the top eight of the GP than qualify for a World Final. Wasnt qualification for a World Final largely about being in the top 8 (or anything up to 11) of various rounds along the way, starting against clearly inferior opposition getting gradually stronger as the rounds progressed but no where near the standard of each individual GP and yet some think qualifying via this route is easy As to qualifying in the year of the competition, well the Aussies used to often hold their rounds in the previous year. As an aside in May of this year (2012) two teams will contest the Champions League Final, a final they are eligible for based on form partly from 2010, is this competition lessened by this.