oldace

I don't believe there was even 4 sold out finals Rob, the only two were 1978 and one other but not sure which, certainly the four you mentioned were not all sold out, some were poorly attended, like I said Thursday night was,t the best night for a World Final.

The memory can play tricks Sidney, yes the bottom tier was full but there were plenty of spaces in the top tier. Iy you have the video these are in evidence once or twice, particularly while the riders are on the parade truck. The racing scenes only really show the lower tier which was full and this gives weight to the myth of a packed house. As regards touts, well they are outside Cardiff every year but there are still 30000 seats available from the ticket office!!!

Quite right Philip, despite the myth of Wembley always being a sell out it only happened twice, 1978 was one I believe. Some of the 1950s finals got barely 50,000 although Thursday nights didnt help to that end

World Finals were indeed exciting events, the day round London, the tube to Wembley where all the stall holders adorned the way to the stadium, an electric atmosphere that you had to be there to believe. I must admit though I look back on those events with fondness, but not through rose tinted glasses and I truly believe, and did even before 1995, that the GP system is better. There are issues, lots of them probably, not least the impact on the Elite League but thats as much a result of the UK being unprepared to move with the times as anything. The qualification system isn't perfect, although not as flawed as some make out. If a World Championship is all about finding the best rider of a particular year then the GP ticks all the boxes there. Taken in the context of the number of speedway fans in the UK now as to the seventies then in real terms the attendance at Cardiff is on a par with a Wembley final so the majority of fans seem to be in favour Like everything times move on and a world final was great in it's day but it was time to move on. Now you could contend that approaching it's 18th season the series seems to have stagnated a bit, IMG seem to have done very little to further it but to be fair I am not sure where they could go with it. Speedway will never be truly global and Poland and Sweden are already saturated with GPS. Another event in the UK would simply dilute Cardiff

72,000 was the official attendence, whatever it looked like or what the touts were charging

Wembley 1981 was attended by 72,000 fans. 90,00 is the myth that developed aided by the box offices skills in "dressing the house" to make it look that way

I don't understand that viewpoint really Ian. He didn't want to race anymore, for whatever reason, are you suggesting that a rider must put in a season or two of mediocrity before he is allowed to retire. Okay the way he renaged on the last 2 months of the season didn't do Cradley any favours but I believe Penhall was starting to have thoughts of self preservation, he didn't want to get hurt, and with or without Hollywood I doubt he would have gone on much longer, doubtful he would have done even another season in my view. As for Billy Sanders, Billy was good in 1983 but with Billy desperation had took over by then, lots of riders want to be world champion and channel everything into achieving it but with Billy it went a lot further and I think that desperation was starting to affect him by then, the more he didn't win the worse it got. Desperate men rarely won world finals, cool calculated performance was usually the order of the day, with a bit of luck thrown in

I wonder why no one has ever thought of debating this subject ever before

2 World Titles was scant reward for a rider of Ronnie's undoubted class. As you say probably the most natural talent ever on a speedway bike. Compare that to Briggo, who its fair to say had minimum natural talent yet worked so hard and determinely to get to where he did. Likewise Ivan, sheer willpower and single minded determination overcame a lack of natural talent to turn him into the greatest of all time. Lots of naturally talented riders for who it all comes easily fail to make it though, look at Joe Screen, certainly one of the most natural riders in the last 25 years but never turned it into superstardom

It always was difficult to do ten years with one club, thats why testimonials were not ten a penny like they are now. A rider being transferred against his will usually received a cut of a transfer fee so the testimonial went some way to compensate a loyal rider who didn't get this luxury.

Testimonials used to be for 10 years service to one club, the proceeds were tax free and usually helped a lower to middle order rider who wouldn't have made much out of the sport to move on with life after speedway. The whole ethic is ruined these days when a testimonial is awarded to everybody and anybody. If the supporters stopped attending these spurious testimonials maybe a return to reality would ensue. Magnus Karlsson has no right to a testimonial in my eyes.

It's all just total conjecture. If the GP had never existed and all the world finals were won by the same riders who won the SGP 1995 to 2010 we would all be sitting here saying Leigh Adams would have been a multi world champion under a GP format, of course the reality is he wasn't, season long consistency never transferred to world titles for Leigh and who is to say it would have for anyone else

Like I said on the other thread, Bast had good results in the USA, even in OZ, but the competition he was against were just there on a glorified holiday. Who did he ever beat in real competition, he only rode in the 77 ICF and was hopelessly outclassed. Thats not to say he couldnt have developed but based on the facts as they are, rather than conjecture, Bast would make no ones top 200

What are you on about. We all know a rider rides for himself, it is the "World Individual Speedway Campionship" the clue is in the title. Thats not in doubt, what was being discussed was what nations colours a rider wears on his body colour and despite some of the nonsensical posts on here the answer is the flag of the nation that issues his racing license. Unless you are Egon Muller in 1977 and then you refuse to wear a body colour at all!!!

No Sidney he isn't. He is right. Like I said you are correct in your point that there is not the same quality around now that there was years ago. With the exception of a couple of riders the Elite League is staffed with a bunch of pretty mediocre riders. You were just using averages to try to prove the point, which as I explained was flawed

Very much so. While its true Bast did OK in the States and in Australia he was only racing against guys who were effectively on holiday.

The lack of quality is partly caused by a lower than 42.5 limit. 42.5 allows the league to grow stronger and prosper, less strangles it

The points limit is entirely neccesary but as long as the number of teams in the league stays the same then it should always be 42.5. Any lower and it forces riders out to be replaced by inferior ones, any higher and teams at the bottom wont be able to strengthen up and wont be competitive

You have pretty much answered your own question, big home wins coupled with away losses lead to higher than expected averages. Exeter tended to be the same, riders could get an 8 point average based around getting 12 at home and 4 away. Teams built that way would usually finish mid table but the guaranteed home wins kept the fans happy

The reason the standard has dropped Sidney is the constant sub 42.5 limit. In average terms 42 is the equilibrium, the average team average if you like. It matters not who the riding staff are, the 42 will always remain constant, as will the average rider average being 6. A few factors sway these figures to a few decimel places but not much. Now to put that into context if you got together 70 people of this forum to staff the 10 teams for the season the above would still be true. Therefore after wobbling your way through the season with a limit of 39 then that bunch of riders would still be too strong to all compete next year, 30 points too strong in average terms. That takes some getting rid of, Four 11+ average men would have to go and be replaced by four new 3 point wobblers. Yes those riders listed above were all quality riders but for every one on a 9 point average there is someone on 3. Like I said your point about quality is correct, you are just using the wrong means of illustrating it

Possibly because he would have ridden in every heat fifteen, often from gate 4, he would take at least 1 ride from gate 4 in the other 4 races and because the figure possibly doesn't include bonus points. You are right in that the quality of the league was better years ago, you are wrong however to try and use the number of double figure averages to illustrate the point

Any rider on an ACU license would wear the colours of Great Britain in any individual World Championship round he was in. Great Britain is affiliated to the FIM via the ACU. Many riders in the past have sought alternative (easier) means of qualifying and taken out, or considered taking out a license from another country, Gordon Kennet, by virtue of a Danish wife considered the option in the seventies. If you have a countries racing license, not only does it entitle you to wear those colours in the GP, it obliges yo to do so. Of course the World Cup is different, only passport holders can represent a given country

Sidney do you understand the principle of averages. If you took the league as it was in 1976 and raced it again with the same riders but using todays format very few would be double figure averages, thats not opinion, its a mathematical fact. I dont disagree that the quality was better years ago, largely because there was no sub 42.5 average limit weakening the league year on year

Big averages for the "superstars" were largely a result of the race formulas at the time though. In Ivans day there was no heat fifteen, no fixed gate posiotions and a formula that only pitted the number 1s together once in a match. Nowadays, no matter who is in heat 15, one of the big guns will run a last place. The old way did in fairness create superstars because it was easier for more of the big guns to average double figures, today a double figure average is a monumental task

In the individual World Championship, the SGP,a rider represents the country who issue his racing license. In the World Team Cup a rider represents the country who issue his passport, in the case of duel nationality he may choose. Holta could have raced under a Polish License and wore their colours in the GP but without a Polish passport, which he has, he couldn't have represented them in the Team Cup