Grand Central

It has been commented on before that there has been so very little market research done into Speedway. So it just makes me wonder if the classification of Speedway fans being C2DE is actually correct. My parents and their friends who attended in the fifties to seventies were just about unanimously C1 or C2. Due our education, profession and positions of responsibilty in the work place; Me, and just about all my personal friends, could only be described as B or possibly A (for the one that drives an SLK). I fear that we may ALL just LOOK like the 'great unwashed' purely BECAUSE we attend Speedway.

Yes you are probably spot on about JanO that day. That first race win WAS the eyebrow raiser but as you say the early gate one advantage was strong. Sam Ermolenko was certainly THE surprise packet that day, no doubt. Kai Niemi was just some strange enigma, though. He was part under-rated by many and then also part an under-achiever as well! Having spent a couple of years following Wimbledon whilst at University one had become well versed with his ways and I remember he did score well in the re-opening World Team match at Odsal earlier in the year. So he was less surprising to me. The Yanks, after their performances in the Overseas at Odsal, I think we all expected more of them. Shooey's failure being particularly disappointing; but I was never a King fan so his score sort of passed me by at the time.

No pedantry is fine. Of course he wasn't in the run-off for the title in 1988, I really didn't write that very well at all. You are probably right about the 1985 Final; perhaps it was just me and my Dad that were a little surprised by his performance that day. But I do remember us chatting about it in those terms at Odsal that afternoon. Better than Sam or not? That's an interesting question as I had not really ever thought of them in a 'match-up'.. Instinctively I would put JanO ahead. But if i thought about it little longer and looked facts and figures up I might change that! I went to each of their World Final wins and there is no doubt that while JanO did not face a very distinguished field at Ullevi; he did smash them to pieces. Sam had a rather average afternoon at Pocking and managed to come away as champion. I had followed Wolves around a fair bit in 1991 and Sam had been absolutely phenominal on many occasions that year. So taking all his injuries into account it just seemed fair, and that a man of that talent deserved at least one title. Thinking back, yes I think Sam was 'worth' one title. JanO was probably 'worth' the odd one more.

Yes, in general true, But he had already done the hard part of qualifying for the finals in 1989 and 1990 via the Nordic route And Danes were actually not that plentiful in the those particular Finals. Realistically a fully fit JanO may well have had to settle for a Silver medal behind Hans at Munich. But at Odsal, of course, Hans was the lone Dane when JanO pulled out. Good final though it was most of the field was fairly beatable by someone with a little extra. Whether JanO would have had that without the off-track injury, who knows? Yes, that's true.

Yes, I'm always being told be sympathetic to the elderly! Jan O is just one of those people for whom the mention of his name always seems to remind one of the awful 'luck' he suffered And how differently his career may be viewed today but for those injuries. He is all-too often viewed as a on-time-charlie when nothing could be further from the truth. He had that unexpectedly strong World Final debut in 1985, second in 1986, so-so in 1987 and third after a run-off for the title in 1988. His title win in 1991 would look so much less isolated if, in 1989 and 1990, he had been allowed to perform at the finals for which had qualified. We could be remembering a two or three time champion and at the very least a man who could have had rostrum appearences five times. And perhaps so much more in the subsequent years. Except, of course, for injuries.

Simply bizarre! From memory I believe he qualified for both the 1989 AND 1990 World Finals only to suffer broken bones in his arm(s) just days before the finals and was forced withdraw from appearing at both Munich and Odsal.. Injuries, and right at the wrong time, were quite a feature of JanO's career and certainly a big reason why he was a one-time only winner. .

How intriguing. It is the crowd levels AT meetings that makes Sky unhappy. I fully understand that meetings like Monday at Peterborough look sad with such small crowd levels but the OB fees are paid by the subscribers ... And they were at home watching Sky! The Premier League matches featured so far have been just a two or three a year. It is their novelty value combined with local promotion that has kept the attendance up at each. All of which would have been true of he EL clubs if they had featured as sparingly. Why would the attendance at PL meetings, probably on 'off nights', hold up better when they become the staple fare? What a topsy-turvy sport we follow when the TV company WANT the 'second' division NOT the Elite. We really did waste all that extra Sky money giving it to the top riders for all those years, didn't we? .

Well. as it's Kelvin and Nigel who do the GP commentary and the same pair then present the EL show for Sky I would have thought it an interesting question to ask them about what are the 'team orders' at Sky. Does anyone know them well enough to 'pop that questtion', say, over lunch?

Goodness, Ales was certainly a happy Bunny.

Wasn't it just the simple case that the interviewer referred to Eurosport figures for SEC in Europe... 6M And Olsen was quoting a worldwide figure for SGP including figures for other broadcasters in addition to Eurosport... 12M

Absolutely right as the print out that Phil put up shows just how there even more add-ons than ever. These have to be totted up before you can call it a true price to compare to others. Minimising baggage to say one 15kg bag between two, deciding not to opt for reserved seating and using a debit card to book all reduce the additional charges. One of the things that the package travellers welcome, i suppose, is not having to go through that process. And then you can find, as here, that booking up to six months in advance can give you a worse deal than waiting until now to sort it! Quite infuriating.

That's the problem with budget airlines I suppose. Much cheaper flights available today than way back in April!

This is all very strange. I only looked at the prices to go Stansted to Bydgoszcz for the Torun GP with Ryanair earlier today. The decision we were pondering over was to pay £232 to go Friday and come back Monday. Or to have an extra night going on Thursday and coming back Monday which would work out a fair bit cheaper at £135. Taking one bag adds on £30. These prices are for TWO people return.

Nor in the 2013 regulations, if it comes to that.

I agree completely with every point you make. I was just wondering what people thought could be done. But your assesment of the unlikeliness of success is just too realistic.

2013 version here http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/6550004_eng.pdf 2012 version here http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/SpeedwayGP_en.pdf

A 'made for sky' competition would have to built around the Sky Schedules with the realisation that we were well down their list of priorities. So we would get what is 'left'. But the idea of coming up with something of this type would be to keep some of the money rolling in. So hopefully the participation would be open to anyone who could make it viable and they would get to share whatever is being paid. The events and venues would have to be chosen accordingly. I certainly don't see any need for TV to set foot inside Arlington but still have Eastbourne as part of some 'made for sky' event. I feel you have become a little 2013 Elite League 'centric' in your thinking. Surely whatever 2014 brings us it will not look like the current set up anyway. So meeting numbers and the finances of running those meetings are going to change a lot I would have tought A simple renewal of the contract was probably always impossible and not really what the British Promoters would want anyway. The stale format on varied nights is looking past it's sell by date for everyone. But surely we could all see the benefit of keeping Sky on board somehow.

It is now perfectly clear that every rider in the top 8 who announces they are retiring before the list of 2014 SGP riders is published are replaced by the 9th and below riders. If they announce they are opting out after the list is published then they are substituted from the qualifiers list from the Challenge. I do not think that is just a tidying up of the wording. It may very well be what the organisers WANTED the 2012 regs to say. But it wasn't what was written. .

Anyway. Just getting back to the thread for a moment. Are we pretty much certain that Sky will be dropping Speedway? Is that the best assumption for us to use for the discussion? Or is there still a chance of keeping them on board? Most of the talk has been of the 'downsizing' that will take place or have to take place if their money is lost. And bemoaning our rulers failures But does there remain the possibility that some sort of 'package' of domestic Speedway that can be put together to maintain our 'foot in the door' with the people from Isleworth? And then all may not be wasted. But what could that be? I was thinking along the lines of a streamlined competition, completely separate from the season-long league. But one that is drafted specifically to meet Sky's scheduling needs. That could be over say six weeks of Mondays during the Football break. Or much more concentrated over a week or two similar to the SWC. And staged just at tracks that have the facilities to make the production as viable as possible. Devising it would need to take into account exactly what Sky themselves wanted. This could be streamlined knockout tournament, four team event or even our own British series of individual or pairs events. Anyone think this a goer? Or any other ideas?

The facts are comical enough that they were bound to inspire further satire.

As you say, we each have our own preferences. And mine would be for this years's set up of SEC and SGP running side by side. Especially if it is run by a different company AND allows access to territory that seemed out of bounds to BSI. With All the world to choose from BSI can take us anywhere so there must be room for four weekends across Europe for the SEC. On the issue of pairs meetings. One of my favourite meetings of the long distant past remains the 1977 World Pairs Final at Belle Vue so I am not blinkered against them. The race where Ivan kept both Collins and Simmons at bay for four laps at Hyde Road was a memory that will last forever. But seriously how many World Pairs meetings in the next twenty years they were running can you remember well or even slightly fondly? Matters were never helped with the six-man race formula that came in or the hideously irritating 4-3-2-0 scoring farce that seems all the rage whenever Pairs racing is now staged. And the use of reserves which makes a pair into a threesome, is even more loathsome. I accept that a World Pairs may seem a reasonable competition to have on alternate years to a bi-annual World Cup for BSI's purposes but please lets not have anything more than one meeting every couple of years in the summer break. And stick to 3-2-1-0 scoring over the 21 heat formula if we must.

I can't quite understand why this wildcard this year is raising anything more than an eyebrow. The presence of the wildcard in the rule book is entirely intentional and only exists to operate in this situation. A third world nation who cannot provide a qualifier is given a free space for the purpose of giving the home crowd a reason for turning up. They have to have the same chances as all other starters otherwise their participation in the meeting would be so pointless as to negate their 'draw' value. The thing is we usually think that this facility will only get used by one of 'those' nations. The crappy ones. The Italians, Bulgarians or Romanians. You know the sort. Where their riders don't stand a chance of qualifying anyway. But then the truth is WE are one of those crappy nations. And frankly Danny's chances of qualifying are actually probably less than any previous similar wildcard. Lets just remember this is not an unforeseen flaw in a perfect system. Far from it. This EXACTLY why the revered rulemakers created the abomination.

OK fair enough. I see your position. But actually I like the look of it now it has started. I have to say pairs events just leave me stone-cold and whatever status you give them they have zero appeal to me. And a qualifying series with sub-GP riders ... not so sure I would be too interested in that either. Can't actually see anything wrong with this. .

Quite true, but there aren't any years when the SGP isn't running ... so how would a Euro competition get a look in? Most sports have a World Championship on a bi-annual rota (or longer) to start with We don't. Running four alternate weekends of SGP/SEC seems about right..

Because it is a different Championship organised by different people. Most Sports do have European Championships that are distinct from World Championships.