Grand Central

It was a good idea. Until it was superceded by an even better one. The current match points system. This keeps interest going in both first and second matches brilliantly. Irrespective of the aggregate score which may be very one sided; and only ever really came into play in the second meeting.

You were on safer ground arguing against the double point TR. Which is an abomination. Not the match points issue Which is a one of British Speedway's few modern-day advancements. Whilst I think there is almost unanimous support to eradicate tthe double point nonsense. It just needs a couple of dozen promoters to actually listen and respond.

They are just as up to date as far as I can see. The difference in figures is because yours include Cup and Trophy matches whilst his are only for standard league fixtures.

Peter Oakes says 526. I do hope he is right. We have learned how he hates folk who spread misinformation.

Unfortunately, as the season has gone on that figure is NOT staggering at all. There had to be an average number greater than one guest per match. That was obvious. But it has 'felt' an awful lot more than that in recent weeks. If you told me it was a couple of hundred more, I would not have been surprised.

You are probably right. But here we are a couple of months later potentially facing up to the same issue. No one wins, do they?

What is just as infuriating is that the original fixture was cancelled first thing on Sunday morning. When the forecast was much better than it is today. And on that original date we only had a shower later in the day when the racing would have been all but over. Sometimes we keep digging a bigger and bigger hole for ourselves to clamber out from.

At a guess. There must have been somewhere around 500 matches. So around 550 to 570 guests.

How strange. That sounds so primitive/ Bearing in mind the importance of their role. You would think it worthwhile some attempting to improve that situation.

I know that we all have different opinions. But this is more different than most. I cannot BEGIN to work out how you have come to that ranking

I am still to be convinced on just how good Simmons was in 1976. He won the Internationale and all British rounds of the World Championship; and the Pairs with John Louis. And of course second in Katowice ... because Ivan had his ef !! But otherwise, was it that special, surely quite a few others had a better 76 than him ... Olsen, PC, Mauger even Louis Crump and Jessup had better league seasons that him. And to even compete with KC in 1982 or DJ in 1980? that was way below them? They were head and shoulders above just about everyone in those years. Simmons was never close to that. Or am I wrong ? I am open to persuasion.

It is hardly surprising that the five riders we are discussing should be difficult to separate. With the exception of Carter they had long careers as heat leaders in the BL in overlapping years. They all had strong international records over a variety of competitions in an age when those sorts of meetings seemed quite meaningful. And yet none of them won the top prize. So it really comes down to our own judgement and that does tend to be guided by our subconscious prejudices. And therefore opinions vary so widely. Being a northern boy I saw Carter at his peak. I don't think any of the others were as good as him at their comparative peak. That gives him top spot for me. But if we have to make longevity at the top more if a priority then then others have better claims. To me Jessup was quite brilliant in 1980 I think he shades it over the other non World Champ Brits who were never quite that good at their best. But he wasn't mentioned in the OP. Morton was so much better than Simmons or Louis that he has runners up spot nailed for me. 1 Carter 2 Morton 3 Louis 4 Simmons 5 Wilson

A reasonable thought. But do they not have a screen showing them the pictures we are receiving at home? On Saturday it was obvious something was amiss with that; as has been been confirmed by Philip Rising. But for a couple of races the 'calling' of positions and judgement was so awry that I thought he was doing the job blindfold.

Not entirely sure that says more about Frank Ebdon than Carl Stonehewer, though, to be honest.

Of course Frank Ebdon was front and centre at the time of the tape touching rule change in the mid eighties. When certain riders had great difficulty in making the transition to a different procedure. But the current day issue of unsatisfactory starts that plagued meetings for the last few years, and destroyed the last GP, was just not a feature back then. I wonder how Frank would have handled it. As an aside, when was it actually, that the jumping the start issue really changed. When did the sport change from accepting 'a flyer' to not accepting them at all. It ruins meetings for me so often. But I can't quite remember when the changeover in attitude happened.

Indeed it is. But I think there are many people involved in promotions who have left having suffered a fair degree of pain and loss (especially in their final year or two) that has been funded by their outside businesses as the Speedway business could not be described as viable in its own right, The rules of the sport and the bond with the BSPA tends to make sure that they get a gullible buyer with cash to blow on the sport to take over before anyone actually goes bust. And the cycle continues. Of course the Sky money made a big difference. Making some financial decision look sane when they were quite the opposite. The reality of life without that windfall could make the 'clubs going bust' numbers increase markedly. Unless they get a grip this winter.

Hasn't the reason the 'previous promoter leaves' been because he has lost too much money to continue ?

Strange how this thread has turned into 'Plumbers Weekly'. And I cannot undertsand the relevance. I just thought the laws of supply and demand have been understood for well over 200 years. So hardly a necessary task for us here. But now we have have established that those people who go into a trade that is in great demand and there is a lot of avalibale cash; can earn great money. Which applies to some Plumbers in Britain. Can we get back to the issue of people going into a trade that is not in great demand and there is not a lot of available cash.. Which applies to most Speedway Riders in Britain.

Whilst I appreciate the humour in that reply. I'm not so sure that the distinction is one of semantics alone. I do not think that Speedway is a profession for MOST Speedway riders. Nor ever has been for many. It certainly has not been seen as such for many of the years I have been attending. For SOME it may have had the attributes of a profession. But not for MOST. For most it has been a job that has lasted for a few years. Often as a 'part timer', And has been done alongside another form of occupation outside the sport, especially over the winter. Most ex riders are later employed in careers and professions that have had a longevity far exceeding their few years they enjoyed being a rider. To pretend that, today, when the Sport is in it's current state that the young riders have 'graduated' to a better place than their predecessors just tells us how deep seated our problems are and how difficult they will be to solve.

A job.

Everyone should have a pipe dream.

Yes. And for everyone of those 'out of the ordinary feats'. We all know of dozens more riders of the seventies, eighties and nineties. Who did the mundane thing of juggling a day job with travelling to meetings all over the country week after week. These lads, today, don't know the half of it. I know Philip Rising does not believe that the riders are 'bleeding the sport dry'. But their demands over the past few years and their 'wants' today. Are leaving it looking pretty damned anaemic. No matter what he says.

I am VERY happy to be corrected on that one small point. But still only what you can afford.

Exactly. As has been true for the entire life of the sport. But in far healthier times than these. I presume Richard Clark and his team would regard themselves as underpaid. And would certainly be able to get better money writing for more financially bouyant publications. Maybe even as plumbers. But they don't. I say thank you to them. From the bottom of my heart. But back to work on next weeks edition. From a dwinding audience who will only pay £3 We cannot afford to pay anymore than we are doing. In all walks of life. We are all in a similar position. Speedway riders don't deserve anymore crocodile tears than anyone else. Realities need to be faced and the riders need to understand that more than most EDITED To remove this section that I have been informed was factually incorrect. I imagine that The Star also has a large section of its writing done by unpaid people who have a day job elsewhere. It makes sense in the current economic climate. .

In the battle of the editors. I'm on the sensible McDonald side. The alternative is to believe in fairies.