stratton

Chunky a good response, and your opinion with stats carry good weight, a few points really Nielsen does go down in the pool of greatest riders of all time . .But for me he would only be in the 2nd tier of great riders they cant all be in the top 6 can they.Also you said Lee was on the downward slope, by that time 3rd at norden [nielsen lower i no he had a ef but still lower] and he was third in the B.L.R.C after a duck egg in his first race got filled in.So come 84 no one thought the ban was coming for Lee and as you no that destroyed him and then he was finished.The reason Nielsen would not be in my top six of all time is for me he never proved to me he was better than all of his age group, Generation[ie] Penhall,Lee, and his big foe who in my mind had his number Erik Gundersen .Give him the benefit of the doubt with the Knudsen incident he was still very fortunate to get away with it.So Ole got three titles, Hans four very close but even in your opinion Ole would be up there.

Great post' well explained unlike me; Does that show you after what you have just said,to win a one off final was a achievement because everyone was on the same playing field at that time.Gates didnt mean you couldnt win a final just meant it was harder to do from the back.Where now gates are very important ie] in the semi,s and Final.

II think you summed things up spot on , i went in 83, and was confident Lee could win it was flying at Halifax the week before murdered Carter in the helmet.But on the day Muller was awesome did feel Sanders should of been tougher when he gated him but we all no Muller was a top class alround motorcyclist.But Lee did cram alot in his career in a short space of time 75to 83 six finals third twice fourth once and a winner a pretty good record i suppose.And to think he was really only 25 when his top class career was finished in 83.Nielsen since he has retired if you study his record he did have a terrific career, the impressive thing the longevity of it.

i would,if Penhall and Lee,hadnt of gone from the sport,Nielsen would not of won four titles,he was also very very lucky to get away with the Knudsen incident.Penhall certainly had the measure of Nielsen up until his retirement, there was no reason to suggest to me he would of got the better of Bruce over a long period.Olsen to me is in the top bracket of legends Briggs, Mauger,Fundin ,Craven, Rickardsson Nielsen for me would be in the second bracket.And people tend to forget Erik Gundersen for me had Nielsens number i see him beat Hans numerous times and around Oxford.Respect Nielsen i do but he wouldnt be in my top 6 of all time.

YES maybe he would of he had come from the back,when he fell challenging loftqvist. Just that Briggoe,s time i think was fast,when he defeated Mauger. Briggs, my favourite ever rider, and Olsen was certainly the best danish rider i ever saw both legends.

He did Briggo i think would of won his fifth title not to be though.

Great post, brilliantly put,shows how sport is so exciting the point about Hungary spot on ive always felt the all Blacks have underachieved, also Ronnie Osullivan in snooker.Shows that sport is a hard envireoment and nothing in sport is a certainty .But the one off final was great,but i do think the best riders won at least one title over a period.Dont want to raise this but i better and Parsloes has raised this would Mike Lee, Kelly and several others get there chance right away now in the world championship i think not? ive been looking through my books ect] wondered if anyone new was Mike Lee not aloud in the 1975 world championships because he was only 16?I no he was a reserve for the 1976 british final does anyone no if im correct in this.

wow put me on the spot wont you,gates did have a bearing must of, example Nielsen and Gundersen same ability certain gates on a certain night conditsions played there part as well did influence it. I would like to think the best riders did win it maybe not always the right year but overall.another example Mauger [should of won it in 73 didnt but shouldnt of won it in 72[briggoe,s fall Olsen,s fall. As for Jason yes by far a better rider in my book to Pedersen also i am convinced to compete in the 70s and 80s and be a threat was harder than staying in the gps now.Saying that the gps is hard a different test its just the strength in debth numbers quality wise that sways it for me.Jessup was he good anough? more importantly did he deserve to win it NO.

What is your opinion? i no it is hyphophetical, if Penhall had stuck around would Nielsen and Gundersen won as many titles between them? Also for me Lee[self destructed] sigalos injury ankle? Sanders/ Carter went they were for me the threats along with Jonsson Ermolenko to challenge the danes domination up until 1990. What do you think?Saying all that Nielsen and Gundersen were great riders. But people forget Penhall for that reason that he had a massive bearing on the history of the roll of honour.Do i think Penhall had the measure long term over Nielsen and Gundersen yes i do and more titles would of followed.

Yes im lucky really seen Briggo,Ashby,Kilby,Crump[both]Autrey,Adams at the abbey see Ashby lose in the helmet to Tommy ,well Jansson was classy in a way Adams riding style reminded me a bit like Jansson i think.Iris i wouldnt dismiss anything have a open mind on the gate issue as i am no way a exspert on it.

Could be right Iris i think riders did there research years ago,i went to the abbey every week,in the 70s and a example Ashby who i rated highly usually always hugged the line that was a known fact then by everyone so to have gate one over him must of been a advantage.Thing was Ashby was that good he could pick his way from the back even top class riders he used to just creep under them and he was ruthless.So Iris if like you are saying riders new beforehand about gates ect must of been a advantage?Maybe its like now its what you put in is what you get out i mean by that doing your homework on certain issues gates and certain gearings on the bike.

Maybe now it is,? not something i ever thought about then its like i never thought well Collins is off four in that race he will never get Mauger from the back because he is off gate one.Maybe now it is relevent in the 70s and 80s i never even thought about the gate positions.

I see your point and you did acknowledge Jan o s win,maybe he was just clever anough to gain an advantage and get away with it .I must admit his gating in that meeting was unbelievable.Maybe he was lucky to get away with it but i always felt like with Mauger any little bit of detail and a little edge he used it.Can always remember what Ivan said once about Briggoe,s toolbox all his spanners were never in order.And even an old fox like Briggs a legend learned something off Mauger,s professionalism.Fair play impartial one thats something new ive learned about the tyre issue.

Sorry was it 1979,? was wet and that is a understatement, i no Gordon Kennett rode in it?/ It is not a fact just a opinion, in the roll of honour does it say jan o pedersen,s name on it i think so.jan o was a terrific rider and won it on the night and had Nielsens measure alot around that time.Its like saying Egon was lucky he new Norden like the back of his hand and had everything set to his needs.Thats life and things like that happen.Over the years me personally i have never heard anyone moan obout jan o Pedersen,s win not even Nielsen. He maybe a oap, but at least there is a substance to what he is saying also he actually went to these events did you?As for having a clue i think nearly all you said was alot of total rubbish no research facts or anything to back it up with.To say there was all those winners and they were all lucky because of the gates, well is laughable. Really good points about Jessup,1980 he had a terrific year and i am the same as you wasnt a fan but his record as a rider is outstanding.Lee in 1980 it was a great performance nipped through to get Collins for second and then got Penhall from the back so deserved to win that year.As for Crump i am a bit bias because i was a massive fan and looking back now his record dosent look great 3 world finals poor really.But for me Crump being a force in the 70s and up to 85 was harder to do than say stay in the gps as it is now mainly because for me the strength in debth was higher then.

You agree cool.

1977 Parsloes how that meeting was concluded god knows,Reading world team cup 1980 is the worst i have ever seen riders have to ride in that was bad.Collins was so unlucky i think Booey helped him that year on and off his bike horrible gash he would of now been a double world champion deserved to be.I supported Lee that year and he could of still won the title come his last ride.But that meeting i always remember john Boulger coming off the track was horrendous.But for that drain cover, in a micky mouse second half ride at belle vue that really cost Peter bigtime in his overall standing in history.But although the track was a deathtrap it was exciting right up until the last race.

I just dont no what point you are making orion, no logic at all also why you have a opinion on the one off final you didnt see one did you. ive found sometimes you go to a meeting,certain gates are favoured then conditsions change then it turns totally around.i think in team meetings years ago usually the top guys picked and chose his gates was a advantage maybe then but gate positions is not something ive ever worried about.Remember in 1991 jan o Pedersen one of the worst gaters ive ever seen just bombed out of every gate and blitzed his way to victory.Because it was his night and it didnt matter what gate he was on he would of won whatever. Clueless?,every meeting different conditsions maybe it is heavy, slick, you dont no that till the day. You have no idea what you are on about and that is being kind to you.

Really good point,Gearhead, about the gates on a permanent track,going back on the gates in the one off final,i think if you look at the roll of honour and statistics.Apart from 73 when Ivan give it away all the right riders over a period won it.Maybe they didnt always win it in the right year but i think the best riders won.Anyway those days have gone now just thought what Orion said was an insult to the history of the sport and was a slur on the great champions who won it when that system was in place.

The best riders will win off any gate anyway,exspecially if its there night, and they are fireing and everything is going right.I dont think Mauger won 6 titles all off gate one did he and by having lucky gates.I think Orion you are on a different planet, to most of us.

Na, you new it anyway,BOBBATH, next time you come to Swindon i will buy you a pint .I enjoyed scurrying through my books learned alot Lawson must of been good to compete at that level at that age some doing also Mckinlay aged 41 also.

Well you could be a good wind up merchant,or you have no idea what you are on about probably the latter.i dont even think you watched a one off final?

No great champions i cant really say you are a true supporter to say that but its your opinion and i respect it .Buy the way did you see many one off finals?I did six.

Is th gp series that good? ive seen it from both sides have you? of course the gpseries has took speedway on and i will always support it.The reason i support it is because the likes of Rickardsson Crump, Gollob, Hancock are great champions and i admire them greatly.And there will be other great champions too in the future but what you said was that the past was RUBBISH .What a slur on every rider who entered it whether they come first or last.By the way Kerry Packers series might have been crap but that opened the way for cricketers now too earn a good salary from Cricket.

Next year in the gp.series only GOLLOB,CRUMP,HAMPEL,JONSSON,HANCOCK, have any chance of winning the world title in my opinion and three of those are not going to go on for ever which is a worry for the sport.Dont matter though if you come 11th you will probably be in it the year after?I dont understand Orion why you have a huge downer on the one off final its part of the history of the sport why knock it.

By saying that Orion you are in a way putting a downer on the likes of Greats CRAVEN,WILLIAMS,OLSEN,MAUGER ,BRIGGS,FUNDIN ,MOORE ,NIELSEN ,KNUTSSON,,GUNDERSEN, COLLINS ,LEE ,PENHALL,MICHANEK.Have a opinion but that comment well no comment.