waiheke1

I mentioned Kenny Carter and Hyde Rd? And Shawn Moran and Ipswich

Actually, that does sound about right, given the net liabilities increased by around 115k in the last financial year. Not sure to what extent covid will have impacted profitability?

Do you have a copy of these accounts, or link to them? Edit: found them

Assuming they didn't take over any debts from the previous promotion?

I think there are plenty of examples: Shaun Moran at Sheffield or Ipswich; in 83 the world champions would have been different anywhere bar Norden - Mike Lee would have been favourite at Poole or Kings Lynn, Sigalos or Sanders at Ipswich;

Tbf,Mort won a BLRC, which was a better calibre field than the world final. But more likely to be a world champ if the final was held at Hyde Rd, or the Shay, would be Kenny Carter

Also got it for Christmas. Nearly finished it, doesn't really progress beyond "light read." Arguably the most controversial bit is the foreword from PC...

Missing a Friday meeting makes sense, as we'd have had to travel down from Huddersfield after my dad had finished work. Suspect we went to the Coventry meeting on the Saturday instead.

Thanks. Normally we still made the Sunday meetings at Hyde Rd, will have to ask my parents why they didn't take me to this one Also missed the Peter Craven meeting in the same year (won by Andy Smith) for some reason as well.

For some reason I missed this meeting. Was it held on a different night to the usual Saturday meeting? Was it this meeting that Penhall was a no -show? The meeting's available on dvd from Jan Steachmann.

Les on top form was truly world class (add the 80 BLRC to his 82 performances). From 83-86 Phil was the better rider though ( and Les was arguably surpassed by Neil as well from 85), with thr highlight being the overseas title win in the wet. I see your point, but to me there is no question that they rank Peter, Les, Phil, Neil, Stephen. If there's a question mark, it's whether Neil's longevity places him ahead of Phil (personally, I'd say not).

For the VERY top riders, the number of teams didn't really make a difference, as they would beat pretty much everyone anyway (and of course Eric's 84 average was artificially low due to his initial struggles to adapt to the new tape rules). Hans and Eric both increased averages again in 86.

Yeah sorry wasn't clear. Courtney did drop around a point (?) off his average in 84, but that was still enough to have made him a heat leader in most teams. (In 85 when he joined KL he dropped another 2 to become a sub 6pt second string). The issue was, as you say, his away form (see also Larry, Andy and Peter Carr). At home they smashed teams - with the exception of the Premiership at home to Cradley (Finn Jensen!!!) and was it the league Cup or ko Cup against Ipswich?

He went back to the states and won a few North california titles. I think people often under estimate the difference in strength between a top flight of 17 teams and a top flight of 11 teams, which was the shift from 84 to 85. It meant weaker heat leaders became second string quality, and second strings became reserve standard. Arguably that's what happenned to Courtney, Campbell and Ingels in 85.

Was just going to mention that - of all the Americans, we signed the one who couldn't ride Hyde Rd.... How different it could have been had we signed Sam for the latter half of the 85 season, or for the 86 season, on a bargain average.

Mostly agreed, though not sure he bought the right riders - for example Tatum went to Coventry in 85 for roughly the same price as Campbell went to the Aces. Similarly Neil Evitts and Neil Collins could potentially have been picked up instead of Courtney for a similar fee, and on lower averages. Thorp was definitely a good signing, and as you say the pick of the bunch. Courtney was very good round Hyde Rd, very disappointing away, but still averaged close to 8 in his one season. The issue iirc was attitude, certainly not ability, and he dropped a coupole more points off his average after leaving the Aces. Blackbird also seemed a good signing, had a superb 1986, and was surprising that he didn't kick on. Was it a lack of investment in equipment? Campbell I have to admit I'm biased against (as he replaces my all time favourite Ace), but it just never seemed a good signing. The Aces could have kept one of Ross/Courtney/P Carr, all of whom had vastly superior records round Hyde Rd, and at least the latter two seemed to have much more potential. It just never worked out - recall Bammy saying something like he thought he was signing a heat leader (pretty sure Campbell rode at number 1 in his first meetings, so he was obviously envisages as Larry's successor in that role) but instead he got a good reserve.

My point in including Andy Campbell wasn't to compare ability wise with Collier or Crang. If I included only the latter two however, it would seem I was basing eligibility only on ability/points contribution. Rather someone like Campbell, who rode only one season in Aces colours, should also imo not be entitled to free life time admittance to Belle Vue.

Yes. But PC WAS offerred free admission. My understanding is his grievance is he felt that ALL former riders should have been offerred the same (I.e the response analogy offerred by falcace). I don't believe anyone would disagree with genuine legends like PC and Mort being given lifetime free admission. But should the same apply to say - and with no disrespect intended- Marc Crang or Andy Campbell or Bernie Collier?

Suspect he is confused because your question SHOULD have been, why is Mike Bast not in the 70s list...

Yeah, I'd still have Mort on basis of longevity if I was submitting my own subjective list, probably ahead of Sam. Similarly I'd have Lee ahead of Carter on the basis of his world title.

Should be in there for both decades, absolutely

the only metric Andersson out performs Mort is performance in world finals. Outside that, Mort won BLRC, inter-continental, world Pairs and WTC titles and had a better BL record. And there is no metric at all which would place Phil Crump in the top ten riders of the 80s, unless we limit to league performances at Blunsdon Rd, or Overseas finals held at Hyde Rd in years ending with an even number...

Not much to disagree on the list, though I'd have Ward,Jonsson or Puk ahead of Freddie, but I'd definitely change the order around. I'd suggest: 1 Woffy 2. Hancock 3. Zmarzlik 4. Doyle 5. Hampel 6. Pedersen 7. Gollob 8. Sayfutdinov 9. Holder 10. Ward

I'd definitely have PC ahead of Michanek in 3rd. Mike Lee - arguably the best rider in the world in '79- needs to be in there, certainly ahead of Louis. And can't see a good argument for Briggo being on the list.

Never was Kenny a more natural rider than Mike Lee. Mike Lee was, along with Darcy Ward, the best natural talent of the last 50 years imo. Don't get me wrong, Kenny was the best visting rider I saw around Hyde Rd, and there are few who would compare for speed or determination, but there are plenty of riders I'd argue had more natural talent than him - Kelly Moran, PC, Emil, etc.