waiheke1

Despite our proud speedway heritage, I'm not sure its ever been as big here as our success would indicate -as an example, only Ivan Mauger of our riders has won the Nz sportsperson of the year (77+79). And of course, to make it big, riders today (as with Mauger, Briggs and Moore) will have to head over to Europe to do so. In the late 80s when I returned to NZ, even though the likes of Shirra and Barge were still competing successfully in the UK, speedway hardly got a mention. Hopefully this GP will start to change that, realistically it's always going to be a minor sport, but a GP wildcard is the start of things to realistically aspire to for Kiwi riders.

Given that BSI pay a fee to FIM, isn't it the FIM money that should be passed on to speedway - either to national federations for discretionary use, to the clubs, or into approved training programmes? If that's not happenning, maybe Speedway should form an independent (from FIM) governing body, to whom BSI monies would go (preumably this would have to wait until the end of the current contract), Is there any benefit to Speedway from affiliation with FIM?

I actually agree with Sidney on this one , at least as a valid point of discussion. Both are in the top 15 riders in the world, Bjerre has finished just the right side of the top8 the last three seasons, and Freddie just the wrong side, both have been competitive without threatening to finish any higher than mid-table. And I suggest most on here would pick them to finish between 7th-12th this season (basically in line with their NZ GP showing, Bjerre’s engine problems not withstanding). Let's face it, in any era there are going to be riders who are good enough to finish 6th-10th season on season, capable of winning the odd GP or at least making a few podium appearances, but not quite good enough for whatever reason to mount a serious push for top3 over a season. There's no disgrace in that, it's just the way it is - for example in the 80s fine riders such as Morton, Andersson, Schwartz and Doncaster would probably fall into that category. At the current time, I would suggest Bjerre and Lindgren are perfect examples of this. So, if such riders should finish 9th/10th this year, should they be replaced? Surely it depends on the quality of the alternatives from outside the series. Looking at the current line up, Ward and G Laguta could/should come in next year (for Ljung and the other bottom rider) and definitely strengthen the series. Woffinden for Harris would look a likely swap also. Which would leave 4 of the current GP series finishing 9th-12th (likely, IMHO and at this early stage to include both Bjerre and Lindgren). So, who could replace them? Maybe the likes of Janowski, THJ, Batchelor, Schlein etc.? But they would have to show over the course of this season that they are at least close to the level of Lindgren/Bjerre, and have greater potential to challenge for a rostrum spot within a couple of seasons. And a lot also depends on who the three riders making it through the GP challenge are (i.e whether Ward/Laguta/Woffinden require wildcard slots) and whether any of the top riders in the current series miss out on top 8 due to injury. It’s also worth considering that they are only 28 and 26 respectively, so potentially have another 15 years of top flight speedway to go – so far too early to start writing them off, even though I personally can’t cannot see them winning world titles ahead of the younger crop of Holder, Emil and Darcy. That said, its worth noting that Hampel, who is 29, has only been a genuine contender for the last two seasons. How many times, the top8 DO qualify, via the difficult task of finishing in the top8, so too do three riders via the easier knock-out system. There are 4 places which are not "qualifying spots", most agree that this is too many, however the debate around why these spots exist has been done to death Ward had a record in domestic leagues last year, a better per meeting record in GP events, and is five years younger. Janowski is another matter, he'd be being picked largely on potettial rather than being better at the current time On what do you base this? Could it be that simply they are not quite as good? Based on domestic records in 2011, I'd rank them 12th (FL) and 15th (KB) in the world - so, actually they perfomred better in the GP (i.e. big) events. I'm not sure what you are referring to as happening in NZ? Bjerre's engine failure and puncture?

Steve, my post was in no way intended to denigrate PC, who is one of my five favourite riders of all time, and in my view the greatest Brit of all time. I've recently re-watched the 76 World Final, and his victories from the back in his first two rides were superb. Also, PC was not a terrible gater - for example the 77 World Final he manged 5 good gates, the 80 World Pairs final he made the gate pretty much every ride. However - pick a field of 16 all time greats at their peak, and PC would be at best the 15th best gater in the field. Overtaking one ATG in a race is hard enough, to pass 2 or 3 would be nigh on impossible. that's why, IMHO, he would likely finish lower down the field in such a hypothtical meeting as those other riders. Put together an ATG Brit final and i would be a different story, PC would be more competitive from the gate, and would be one of the three rides (along with Lee and the other PC) fighting for the title. That said, its worth noting that his Brit final record in the 70s was arguably ranked only 3rd, behind Lee and Louis.

What a great afternoon! My first live meeting since 1987 (!), and my goodness I’d forgotten how great live speedway is. The smell in particular, the speed of the riders and how close they are to each other (and the fence) – speedway really is one of those sports where TV does not do it justice. Anyway, my thought on the event: The racing: Far better than I had expected. With a brand new track, and riders expected to be a little rusty, I was expecting it to be pretty processional, especially after seeing the first heat. But I thought the quality of racing was very good, in particularly heat 15 (Gollob v Lindback) and 20 (Emil vs. Hampel). The track: Excellent I thought for a first time venue. Obviously there was that patch on the third bend that cut up a bit, and I’m sure there’ll be some minor alterations for next time, but the track preparation team did a fantastic job. The stadium: Embarrassed to admit it, as someone who lives so close to Auckland, but this was my first event at Western Springs – but I think it’s a great stadium. We arrived about an hour before the start, and the terraces looked packed, but we were able to grab a spot at the entrance to the third bend, about four rows from the front, which turned out to give an excellent view of the whole track, and felt so close to the action as the riders entered the bend. I expected to be showered with shale, but the dirt deflectors obviously do their job. Next year, I think we’ll arrive a little earlier but head for the same spot. Would be interested to know whether those who bought grandstand tickets though the extra cost was worth it? Also, the big screen was used very effectively between heats to show replays (and prior to the heats to show the next heat line up). The queues for the toilets was non-existent, for food and drink didn’t seem too bad. The announcer was pretty poor, and I was surprised that there was no mention of heat times (not even on the big screen). The crowd: It seemed every bogan and Westie from west Auckland was there! Seriously, I’m sure half the crowd didn’t know their Briggs from their Bunyan, and were pretty quiet, but incredibly well-behaved and cheered in all the right places! The Aussies had comfortably the most vocal support, though arguably biggest cheer of the day occurred when Bunyan headed home Bjerre in his last ride. The main thing of course was that it must have been around 20,000 which was absolutely fantastic – and I’m sure at least 90% will be back next year, no doubt bringing a few extras, so if the weather is as kind in 2013 I think you could hit the 25k mark (though if the weather is poor that could shrink by 10k) The weather: an absolutely perfect day(and lead-up) to it, sunny but not too hot. Value for money: $45 (about 23 quid) was great value I thought. In addition I was very impressed with the programme, which for $10 was very substantial, a wealth of info, some good photos. The riders: Hancock: Rode well all night, a deserved winner. A couple of good rides where he had to come from the back made a bit of a mockery of a comment someone posted the other day about him being a “boring” rider (though he’s not an excitement machine like say Emil or Gollob). Hampel: My personal prediction for the winner, a couple of poor rides to start, but then hit his form. Pedersen: Solid and brave performance, did just enough to secure a rostrum place: Crump: a bit of a mixture. Looked very good at times, but a poor last in his third ride, and lat in the final. Gollob: Looked unstoppable in the first half of the meeting, the fastest rider on display and looked a nail-on GP winner, but missed the gate in the semi and couldn’t get passed Nicki. His race with Lindback in heat 15 was one of the evening’s highlights. Emil: The most spectacular rider on the night, and was a little unlucky in incident with Pedersen. He hit the rut, had almost got passed Pedersen, and it seemed to me Nikci turned back a little into him- I think the ref made the right call, but 1 in 4 the decision could have gone the other way. His heat 20 battle with Hampel was breath taking, real heart in mouth stuff, especially given he only needed a second place to secure his semis berth! The sort of racing attitude which I’m sure will both win him some, and cost him some, world titles in the future. Lindback: Very impressive, the surprise package of the meeting. He was definitely one of the top 4 riders on the night, but got outgated in the semi and that was that. Freddie: Solid, did just enough to make the semis, but was the one rider you couldn’t see making the final from there: B Pedersen: Like Freddie, solid enough, without ever really firing: Andersen: Looked off the pace, but a win in his final ride will hopefully give him confidence for the next GP. Harris: Given his propensity to start the season poorly, and my anticipation that it would be a gater's track, I was only expecting him to finish ahead of Ljung and Bunyan, so in that sense surpassed expectation! But in reality, I thought he was possibly the worst f the GP regulars (possible exception Ljung), and while its early days, I can see this being his last GP season, unless Tai fails to qualify and turns down a wildcard invite. Jonsson: Started with a superb win, and then had a disastrous meeting from there on – hugely disappointing: Holder: The other big disappointment on the night, seemed lacking the necessary speed and barring his win, wasn’t doing the business from the gate. That said, he was a little unlucky in his last ride (when a win would have got him to the semis), he was so close to getting into the lead round the first two bends, instead got shut out wide and couldn’t make any impression from the 4th spot. Ljung: Better than I expected, but nailed on for 15th this season (barring injuries) Bjerre: a couple of solid seconds, then engine problems ruined his night. Bunyan: Performed in line with my expectations, far from disgraced., and vindicated his selection as wild card. Apart from his first ride he was never last from the tapes, and was fully deserving of his point in the final ride. Certainly more competitive than the likes of Starostin, Ondrasik and Kroeze in the world finals of the 80s. Pre-meeting entertainment: By the time we’d grabbed a seat, we saw the cheer-leading display (mediocre) and the army band (which I think is only ever a hit with the over 60’s – and personally I think when they try to do “modern” stuff (YMCA) it’s a little bit cringe. The main thing is the speedway, and I’m not too fussed about pre-meeting stuff, but this is one area where there could be improvement next time. I’d love to see a half hour set by an iconic musician/ban such as The Exponents, The feelers, Davy Dobbyn or Gin Wigmore, perhaps a cheerleading display by the Monster girls (I presume they have a global cheerleading team?), and if it’s a night meeting next time (Kiwi- is this possible if included in advance as part of the Western Springs calendar?) some fireworks to open/close the meeting. The media: Very disappointed with the print (and online)coverage both before and after the event, for a global world championship event attended by 20,000 people and in a sport which NZ has superb heritage, I thought it deserved far more media space than it got. That said, the DJ on Radio Hauraki has just commented on what a fantastic event it was, and spent a couple of minutes talking about the bravery of Nicki Pedersen, how fantastic the crowd was etc. Overall, I’d have to give it 9/10. As others have mentioned, a few minor improvement can (and I’m sure will be made), but huge congratulations and thanks to Bill Buckley and team for bringing this event so successfully to NZ.

anyone go to the practice today - any riders looking particularly sharp? any reccomendations on best viewing spot for non-grandstand ticket holders?

If you put them at their best in a one-off final I'd be inclined to agree with you. In a field of greats at their peak, Collins would struggle to pick them off from the back (unless it was held at Hyde Rd of course!). Nielsen for me blew too many world titles with one bad ride to rank quite as high as Penhall or Lee in a one-f scenario (that sais he was simply awesome at Munich in 89). Under a gP system, however I'd disagree. Lee never had a season where he was utterly dominant for a whole season.Superb as he was for a period in 83, he didn't win anything of note that season. 80 he won the World Final, but that was about it in terms of big individual meetings. 79 was probably his best season, but he still had some bad meetings (e.g. OVerseas Final of WTC), and won "only" Commonwealth and Inter-continental titles. Collins, again in a field of world class riders at their peak, would probably encounter a few too many tracks not conducive to passing to finish top. Which leaves Penhall (81 version) and Nielsen (86 version) very very close, but I think ultimately I'd have to go with Hans - he won absolutely eveything that season,and recorded the highest EVER BL average - he may not win the most GPs, but he would be in every final. to be pedantic, you'd have to say only 11 years for PC (taking out 1981 where he barely raced in the BL, and wasn't allowed to compete for England or in the WC).

I'd be almost certain you'd be able to watch it live on t'internet, the way we kiwis have to watch all the other GPs

If you include longtrack, then surely Wiggy is greater than them both? Surely you have to include performances/titles in the England colours, given that Speedway is just as much a team sport as an individual one (even if the most prized title is the indvidual crown). Anyway, as I said before there's no right and wrong in this debate, it's not like you're claiming Keegan to be better than Daliglish in which case there definitely would be a right and wrong Would have loved to have seen Hoddle play live, my favourite ever English midfielder, and this from a Liverpool supporter- he still wouldn't be in my top 30 players of all time though. Was Lee's record against those riders you name "excellent? In World Final's head to head clashes: vs Penhall 1-1. vs Mauger 1-2 vs Gundersen 1-1 vs Nielsen 1-2 and vs Pc 1-1 Certainly a very good record given that we are comparing against all time greats, but not sure you'd call it excellent?

I dis-regard longtrack, as in my view it s adifferent sport (I wouldn't include Karl Maier as one of the great speeedway riders of the 80s for example). As I said above, Lee's performance on World finals is certainly at least on a par with PC. Pc won more BLRC's (albeit with home advantage), Lee more British titless, and I would say then won roughly comparable number of major World Championship qualifiying meetings (you mention Lee's commonwealth title, but ignore PC's winning 2 Inter-continental finals's to Lee's one). So, I believe in individual meetings, their records are almost in-separable (under a GP system I happen to believe PC would have won two world titles to Lee's one, but a similarly valid argument could be made 2-1 in Lee's favour). However, PC won 4 World Pair titles (with 4 different partners!) and 5 WTC's (including three maximums in a row!). Lee won only 2 WTC. Obviously on the WTC front PC had the advantage of being part of a stronger team, but Lee's record (even if you go on points scored rather than titles) is simply not as good. Pc won three of his World Pair titles in the 80s (i.e. when he was past his best). Lee only represented England once and perfomed well, however I'd suggest the reason Lee wasn't picked more often was Pc's superior team riding. Pc at his peak averaged over 11 in the BL (threshold for BL greatness in that era?) - I don't believe Lee ever did. So, looking at the above, I rank PC ahead of Lee not because of his achievements as an inidiviudal, but his success in team events where he made decisive contributions.

Why do you think Lee, Collins, Louis, Moore wouldn't have got a chance REGULARLY? Your chief criticism of the GP seems to be that the same riders stay in it each year (if they are good enough) - surely the definition of regularly? For example , Collins would have ridden in the 79 and 81 GPs, he didn't make those finals. Similarly, I'd say Lee would have ridden in the 82 GP (didn't in the 82 final). So, quality riders that you have names would surely have had a chance to win the title more redularly not less? Would it have been a bad thing if Lee had not been in the 77 series - obviously it would have made that year's series slightly less exciting (similar to Ward this year), but in the long run would it have made any difference? In fact, looking at Moore, Collins and Lee (the three examples regularly trotted out of olden day youngsters doing well) - these incredibly talented riders managed "only" four titles between them. Compare that to say Mauger, Briggs, Nielsen to whom success came later (and were arguably less talented riders) who managed 14 betwteen them. Is there perhaps an argument that it is better for a riders career development not to have too much success too young - as perhaps it may dim the motivation, bring too much pressure etc? Perhaps we should be pleased that Ward is delaying entrance to the series until he feels he is totally "ready."

not sure I would have a disproportionate number s of post 70s players (though given that my football knowledge would really only date back to say 1930, you'd expect at least half to be post 1970s players) - the list of post 80s playes were examples of those who could be considered, not neccesarily ones I wou;d include. Im not sure that's the best way to compare riders though. For example, if you put Nielsen and Gundersen head to head like that, I would epxect Gunderrsen to beat Nielsen more often that not, however I rate Nielsen the greater of the two. Speedway after all is (generally) not a sport consiting of two person races. Personally, where riders are of such similar ability, I'd look at achievements to split them - and to me Collins is definitely ahead of Lee in this regard. But, of course it's all opinions, and there is no right or wrong answer!

I think we have three categories of riders being names. Firstly, genuine alltime World greats (PC x 2, Lee, arguably Farndon etc.) Secondly, great British riders (Boococks, Morton, Wigg etc.) - riders who were short of the very top level, but were World Class riders who excelled at both international and domestic levels. Dependent on your ""thresholdd for greatness" someone like Jack Parker may belong to the first group or the second group. Finally, you have a heap of riders being names who were good riders - solid heat leaders, decent at international level, with the occasional higher achievement (e.g. the likes of the Grahame brothers, Phil Collins, Reg Wilson etc.) again - some judgement between who belongs in the second and third categories e.g. Les Collins, Jeremy doncaster some would argue as being in the "greats" other in the "goods." I think most of these type of lists has a biad to post-war, partly because of that being the maximum life-span of most people posting, but also because the World Championship (or World Cup for football) is the key barometer of success - so War time (and pre-wartime where the titles were in their infancy) greats are generally forgotten. So, I wouldn't imagine Peter Craven sliding into the "obscurity" of say Tom Farndon, but he may be to some extent overlooked in favour of more rcent riders - however, Peter Collins is unlikely to suffer the same "fate" becuase the advent of video footage of a decent quality means that fans of future generation will be able to witness him in his pomp. the "youtube" age certainly has its advanytages oin that regard! Personally, I think Collins has to be ahead of Lee. World Final records were pretty equal, however PC had a much better record in the World Pairs,and World Team Cup, a better BL record and was unparallelled as a team rider. Interestingly enough, I think both Collins and Lee underachieved compared to their ability. Compare them for example to Briggs and Maiuger, Olsen and Nielsen, and they were arguably much the greater natural talemts - however achieved considerably less success. Co-incidence, or something in the British speedway rider s mindset? Perhaps having to come over to a foreign country ade the Kiwis and Danes mentally tougher, or they had a better "work ethic" or...? tbh, I wouldn't consider him in the top 20 - possibly beacuse of a bias towards attacking players- but realistically to name all those who might potentially be considered in the top 20 I'd have had to name 200 players! Certainly he'd be in my top 10 British players, and certainly top 50 world, but not my top 20. Interseting you mention Rummenige here,but not in your earlier list of post 1980 players. Again, I could have named Keegan (though his lack of World Cup appearances certainly would count against him) and Charlton but while these I would consider amongst the great British players, I certainly wouldn't rate them top 20 of all time (top 50 probably for Charlton). Ronaldinho is an intersting one - at his best he was absolutely brilliant, twice World player of the year and a World Cup winner- but obviously he then declined in the years when he should have still been at his peak (a Mike Lee of the football world?)

I think the opposite can also be true, and we can underestimate recent sports people. Matthews I would say would not be in the top 20 footballers of all time. Of players since 80, I think you'd have to include Platini and (fat) Ronaldo as well in the top 20, as well as the threee you mention. Additionally, I'd say the likes of Xavi, C Ronaldo, Van Basten, Gullit, Romario, Zico, Ronaldinho, Dalglish, Baresi would not be that far outside it. I'd say there'd be about 11 "nailed on": Pele, Maradonna, Messi, Best , Cruff, Puskas, De Stefano, Garincha, Beckenbauer, Ronaldo, Eusebio. Then the likes of Jairzinho, Zizinho, Yashin, Didi, Muller, Meazza, Hidegkuti, Edwards, Sindelar and a host of others (including the recent player s have names above) wothy of consideration for the remaining places.

So to repeat the question... which of Lee, Louis, Moore or Collins won the world title as an 18 year old? Of course they have a lot to do - they are only teenagers, with their whole career ahead. Sydney - I can guarantee you that some of today's young riders will go on to be world champion, and even some that you haven't yet heard of yet will one day be regarded as starts of the calibre of Lee, Collins etc.

and it would be the same if you had a one-off final now - look at how many different riders finish on the podium in a GP each season - the bulk of the GP field would be capable of finishing on the podium under a one-off final system.

Sidney - can you tell me in what year an 18 year old won the speedway world final, as I must have missed it. Or even a 500-1 long shot did? Emil finished on the rostrum in 2009, was not that far off winning it, so I'm not sure how you can rule out the possibility of a teenager ever winning the GP. Of course, the chances of a 500-1 long shot winning it are very slim (by definition) - but notably the examples you have given won "knockout" compeitions, whereas the chances of an upset in a league style event are much slimmer - not because of "open" or "closed" shop, but because performances are needed to be sustained over a whople year - just as the FA cup has a much greater chance of an upset victor than the Permiership.

the heat by heat results show it to be the classic 18 heat format - however, that doesn't help that much as it could be anyone of 5 riders (Louis, Reg Wilson, Ray Wilson, Betts or McMillan)!

Holder Jonsson Pedersen Gollob

Sydney - you haven't answered the question though - how is what you are proposing an "open shop." i think ideally there would be a qualifying series - perhaps 64 riders, randonly drawn into 4 meetings, then seeded for a seconfd round of meetings based on perfomance in the first round). Points system as per GPs, after two meetings, the bottom 16 riders would drop out. Same again for another two meetings, another 16 riders drop out (i.e. the 16 with the least points over the preceing 4 meetings), and so on until a final meeting for the top 16. From this I'd say the top two riders straight through to the GP, next 8 meet 9-14 from the GP, with two spots for the top 2 in the world under 21s all meeting in a two day GP challenge - top 3 to qualify. Of course, from a practical point of view this would never work, two much disruption to domestic leagues and the cost would be too great. So, back to the drawing board...

Sidney, you say that the current system is a closed shop, and that that is a failing of the current system. Currently there are 3 slots for riders from outside the series, open to pretty much any rider in the world, with a knockout system in place. Your proposal is to remove these qualifying spots, replacing them with nominated riders (akin to the wildcards which you have railed against) - leaving precisely "zero spots" for automatical qualifying from outside the series. Can you explain how this is more of an "open" shop? You've made mention of the current system having no "romance" - can you explain how under your proposal there is a chance for a shock qualifier (say someone from outside the top leagues) to qualify? You seem to be contradicting yourself! That's not to say that your proposal is without merit, certainly the 8 riders you list (if we substitute G Laguta for Kennet) is stronger than the top 8 in the GP qualifiers last year. What does that tell you ? That selecting riders based onsubjective criteria (but based on results in things like domestic league, WTC etc) is more effective in getting a high quality field than a knockout qualifying system. And that's what the GP organisers have realised too - hence why they have 4 "permanent wildcard slots" as this allows them to make sure the standard of the field is high (i.e. not missing any genuine title contenders) which a) makes it a true world championship and is arguably a commercial neccesity. Also, you seem to be doing away with the "local wildcard" spot. I think there is no way that that is going to happen, nor do I believe it should - let's face it, the extra permanent slot is unlikely to be going to a title contender, and if you are doing away with the moermanent nominated riders, it makes the local wildcard spot even more important (otherwise you could very likely end up with the British GP with no British rider) - and lets face it, almost all major world sporting events have a spot for the host nation. I suggest that watching a lot of speedway, or being able to reccite random facts, does not neccesarily equate to speedway knowledge... but neither does an inability to formulate coherent written arguments preclude speedway knowledge either.

My top 5 that I've seen: 1 Peter Collins 2 Mike Lee 3 Loram 4 Simmons 5 Carter and that I didn't: 1 Craven 2 Farndon 3 Parker 4 Williams 5 Price Havelock, Loram, C Louis, Harris... at a push Screen and Andy Smith. Tai I am sure will eventually merit inclusion. Pretty thin compared to yesteryear. Edit: Also, add Tatum to the list of top Brits from the 80s. I'm not sure anyone would claim Britain has as much strenth in depth now as it did in the 70s/80s.

To add to those alreay mentioned, Peter Collins (amazed not already mentioned!), Kenny Carter, Tommy Knudsen, Jan Anderson ] wrong thread - they belong to a thread on those who had lots of different clubs

So Janowski didn't get to compete in the qualifiers last year? Ohthat's right, he did. Say, they had only the top 3 riders from GP stayed in and gave the top 13 qualifiers the remaining places - a totally open shop- - guess what, he wouldn't have qualified either as he didn't make the last 16 in a field without the worlds's top riders (and neither did Ward). guess what, he gets to compete in qualifiers this year too! As has been pointed out repeatedly, young talent actually has a better chance as if they don't qualify they aremuc more likely to be offsrred a wildcard if good enough than you r "journeyman" rider - I'd be very surprised if Janowski isn't in the field by 2014.

Philip, my post above is referring to Sam's upset 3rd place at Odsal in 85, not his World title winning performance (which was no great surprise)in Pocking 93. And yes, Jonsson did win at Odsal in 90.