waiheke1

Yeah, and if Bunyan wins a couple more NZ titles he'll be the greatest ever NZ rider That was my first instinct too. But Nicholls is arguably a better rider than Bastable, Andy Grahame and Evitts, all of whom took the title in the 80s, so I don't think you can rule out that he would have won at least one - no way would he have won seven though.

Add to that the Moran brothers, peter Collins, Andy smith, sudden Sam, Jan o. Oh and declan eccles

Harris pavlic emil hancock

Really? I'd say it'll be five out of Lindback, PP, Andersen, Madsen, Zagar and Kildemand. Anyone know why G Laguta isn't taking part in the qualifiers? Apart from Darcy he's arguably the best rider outside the current series. And he may well struggle to get a wildcard slot, as it looks like Ward, Tai and Hampel (if needed ) would be assured of three of these, with the other maybe going to a second Dane unless once qualifies trhough the GP Challenge.

N Pedersen Emil Harris Andersen

Maybe I'm blind but I can't see his name - is darcy ward not involved in the qualifies?

Cockney Robin – good points Jessup – was actually originally in my top 10 for both the 70s and 80s. In the 70s I eventually dropped him out for Crump, on the grounds that he didn’t get on the podium in World Finals, wouldn’t have been a title contender any year under a GP system, and domestically wasn’t as strong as Crump. In the 80s, I included Knudsen ahead of him on the grounds that Knudsen missed out on w World Title due to a controversial incident in 86, and despite injuries which held his career back, was a force at both domestic and international level over the whole decade. Jessup but for engine troubles in 81 would likely have added a second silver medal to that won in 1980, and under a GP system would likely have finished 1st in 80 and second in 81. At the end of the day, I leant towards riders who were world class for a significant portion of the decade (Sigalos, Penhall and Lee I guess were exceptions to this), whereas Jessup was World Class 80-82, but then tailed off noticeably from there. Sanders – was close to my lists in both the 70s/80s, was probably number 12 in my 80s list. He had an excellent World Finals record, but other than the Pairs final in 83 can’t remember too many other stand out performances from him in big meetings, and under a GP system can’t see him having picked up any medals. Wigg (80s) and Tatum (80s and 90s) were also both just outside my lists , as too was Ermolenko (80s). Wiltshire, Nilsen and Gustaffson were all also close to making my 90s list, but not sure who I would leave out to accommodate them. And 2010s you are right, a host of youngsters coming through (esp Poles and Danes), some of whom will end up being world class, some who will be good but not world beaters, some will never live up to their promise.

If we're to give top 10 Poles of the 80s, or top 10 kiwis of the noughties, we're going to be scraping the barrel a bit... Ok, here's my first crack at top 10 riders by decade, starting at the 60s (I don't know enough about the 50s and prior ) and including a guess at the 2010s. 60s Fundin Briggs Mauger Knuttson Craven Plechanov Moore Woryna Wyglenda GNorden 70s Mauger Olsen Collins Michanek Lee Simmons Louis Autrey Plech P Crump 80s Nielsen Penhall Gundersen Lee Carter S Moran Pedersen Morton Sigalos Knudsen 90s Rikkardson Nielsen Ermolenko Jonsson Hamil Hancock Pedersen Havelock Gollob Knudsen 2000s Crump Rickardson Pedersen Gollob Adams Loram Hancock Sullivan Hampel 2010s Ward Emil Holder Hancock Gollob Hampel N Pedersen Crump Dudek Tai Woffinden (here's hoping!)

Really? I guess when the greatest ever rider is discussed, Ole is likely to be left out, as there are 5 riders with more individual World Titles, including two with double his tally. However, when discussing greatest riders ever, I'd be very surprised if there were many, if any, who wouldn't rank him in the top dozen riders of all time (or post-war). Personally I'd rank him about 7th, behind Mauger, Briggs, Fundin, Rickardson, Nielsen andpossibly J Crump. That said, Ole at his peak was arguably better than a number of those I'd rank above him, but he wasn't as co nsistent (or consistently brilliant) as those others. didn't realise Speedway was so gentrified. Sid - do you really condier whinging about the ref on twitter "losing in the right manner?" Not saying Nicki did either, surely deserves a fine for his antics after the race with Emil. Overall, a very entertaining GP, and I think the ref got ll the calls correct. That said, if Holder had come off down the previous straight, I think the ref would have had to exclude Nicki - Holder paid the price for staying on his bike then trying to dish it back. Any update on Hampel - is it a broken leg or dislocated ankle? How long will he be out for - I remember Carter riding a number of meetings pretty soon after breaking a leg, but I guess Hampel has no really chance of the title this season now, so best to ffully recover and re-group for next year?

Does hampelscore zero or get the reserves points?

Not really true, world champ would have been nickI p.

Thing is Sidney, you can't "fluke" a GP title, let alone 3! You certainly don't win it just be being "dirty". The Moran's are amongst my very favourtie riders of all time, but to rank them (or Sigalos) ahead of Nicki is laughable. Kelly Moran never made a top3 in a World Final, woulddn't have got close under a GP system, never even won a major World Final qualifying meeting. Sigalos and Shaun both had better records than Kelly, but still managed just one World Final medal apiece (under a GP system, Siggy would probably have finished 3rd in 82, Shaun 3rd in 84,85 and possibly 89 or 90). The latter two would both be definitely in the top 10 riders of the 80s (Kelly wouldn't) - but no way do they compare to Nicki (and I say that as a much bigger Moran fan than a Nicki fan). As for Olsen, I too would rate Ole ahead of Nicki (though I'd revise that view if Nicki wins this season) - but I certainly don't think Ole would wipe the floor with him! I understand that you don't like Nicki, and that's fair enough, but I think you're allowing your personal feelings to cloud your judgement of just what a good rider he's been (and still is).

Ok, 2012 GP season has been, IMHO, excellent so far. The racing has been good to excellent, the NZ GP and Leszno standing out, but the racing in Prague and Gothenburg also much better than previous years. And it looks like being one of the most open title races in years, with 6 riders still very much in the hunt for the crown. The old brigade: Perhaps unsurprisingly, the 4 world champions in the field have figured prominently again, all making at least the semis at every event. Nicki Pedersen currently leads the standings, and is arguably riding the best of any of the field at present. Gollob has at times looked superb, and when riding well has looked better than any other rider, BUT he has also been the least consistent of these riders, dropping points when least expected, arguably because he is the worst gater of the four of them. Crump and Hancock have both looked good without finding top gear yet. It’s hard to see past one of those four being crowned world champion again Hampel: Was my tip to win it this year, after finishing on the podium and being outstanding domestically the last couple of years (I was thinking shades of Hans Nielsen, not that I believe he is close to being as good as Hans). But has been disappointing so far, and even domestically not riding as well as the last couple of seasons. That said, he’s only 12 points of top, one good meeting could see him atop the leaderboard. The young Brigade: I thought at the start of the year one of Holder and Emil ould make the podium this year, but its looking like I picked the wrong one! Emil is my favourite rider to watch BUT unless his gating improves he won’t make the top3 this season. I expect watching Emil is like watching a young Peter Collins – you get the feeling that they won’t win as many world titles as their talent deserves because they can’t bloody gate! Holder had a disappointing NZ GP, perhaps distracted by the birth of his son, but since then has racked up more points than any other rider in the last 3 GPs. I’m expecting him to be the only new face on the podium come end of the season. The Swedes: All three sitting between 7th-`10th very much a “middling”performance so far, and I can only see one of them making the top 8 this year. Jonsson has probably been the biggest disapointment so far, two good meetings and two terrible ones. That said, I’d still expect him to be top Sweede this year, but hishopes of repeating last year’s finish are already looking gone. Lindgren has been consistent in every meeting either scraping into the top8, or finishing just outside. The Swedish GP looked like following that pattern, but two excellent rides saw him take out the title. Perhaps that will kick start hi sseason, but I can see him finishing 9th, which would likely be enough to earn him a WC for next season. Lindback looked very good indeed in Auckland, but has been disappointing since. Until the last round I was expecting him to finish the series ahead of Lindgren, my view on that has reversed, and his domestic form has also been poor. The Danes: Have been mediocre at best, although not much was expected of Hans or Bjarne anyway. It’s hard to see any of them making the top8 at present, and nor does it seem likely any will be offered a WC for next year if they miss out – possibly Bjerre if his form picks up in the rest of the season, though with the quality of the Danes outside the series, it seems likely it would be offered to a “fresh face.” The Danes really need a good performance on their home soil this weekend if they are to have a realistic chance of catching the top 8. The rest: Harris has been frankly atrocious, even by his usual slow starting (in both senses of the word) GP form. He’s been slow from the gate, machinery poor, and hasn’t been picking people off from the back. It’s very hard to see him being offerred a WC next season, that surely will go to Tai (who will hopefully accept – tbh I think he’s unlikely to make the top 3 in the Challenge, but perhaps if his qualifying is hindered by injury he will re-think his earlier statement about turning down a WC). Peter Ljung is in some ways the opposite of Harris, as his gating at least is excellent – if Speedway was run over 1 lap I have no doubts he would be top 8. The problem is that he probably gates on average at least second, but finishes on average 3rd – going backwards as races go on. So, my picks at this stage: 1st Nicki Pedersen 2nd Holder 3rd Crump Rest of the top 8: Hancock, Hampel, Gollob, Emil, Jonsson Outside: Lindgren, Lindback, Bjerre, Andersen, Pedersen, Ljung, Harris (Note: a glance at the table on the SGP predictions thread will show that thes epredictions are likely to be very wrong!) For next year: Based on current form I can see one Swede (Lindgren), one Dane (NKI) and one Brit (Tai) being offered spots for next season, with the other place going to Darcy (if he should fail to qualify). If any of the above should make it through the challenge, I could see places going to Lindback/THJ for Sweden, or Bjerre/one of the youngsters for the Danes. If Darcy or Tai qualify, prime candidates for the WC spots would be any of the young Poles (perhaps Dudek or a Pawlicki) or G Laguta. My Favourites to qualify through the challenge at this point would be Ward, G Laguta and NKI in my view, though history would suggest at least one “surprise” packet. But in an ideal world next year’s line up could look something like N Pedersen, Holder, Crump , Hancock, Hampel, Gollob, Emil, Jonsson, Lindgren, NKI, Tai, Ward, G Laguta, Dudek, and any one of Bjerre/Lindback/Pawlicki/THJ/ which I think is a pretty tasty looking line up.

Billy Hamil?

Nicki's had loads of second chances???? Yes, he's been given a permanet WC the last two seasons, but the first of those was after a season written off with injury, and I don't think anyone could argue against him being one of the world's top 15 riders last year. Hardly "loads of second chances" is it? Nicki won't go down high up in history? Well, I know he's proably regarded as the worst rider to win three or more world titles, but that's still pretty high up - must be ranked one of the top 20 of all time. If he wins this year - I'd say at this stage he would be slight favourite though anyone of the top 6 could still win - he joins a group of only 6 riders to have won 4 or more world titles, and would have to be ranked one of the top 10 riders of all time in my view. Yes, he rides hard and to win - are you telling me Nielsen didn't, Olsen didn't, Penhall didn't? How many controversial World Final incidents was Hans in? Penhall - look at the way he took Nielsen out fuirst bend in 81, or the infamous Carter indcident in 82. Olsen in 77, Collins describes having to let him through (due to his broken leg), otherwise he knew Olsen would have knocked him off, and that would have been his night all over. People complain that there are no characters in sport today, but then complanin when they do get a "patomime villain" like Nicki. As for the Wc spot - well NKI is certainly the form Danish rider outside the series, so I guess he can feel hard done by. BUT... you'd have to fancy him to either qualify through the challenge this season, and if not be offsred one of the permanent WC if he continues this form, so that should compensate for any disapointment. As others have said, he's had WC chances in the past, why not give one of the youngsters a go this time - I'm pretty sure MJJ won't be disgraced.

Personally, I'd be tempted to include Simmons and the Mighty Mort in the English top 10 - Jessup and Havelock must come close too. For the Swedes, possibly Bernt Persson and Jan ANdersson worthy of consideration (ahead of Sjosten and Gustaffson?) ROW - Kai Neime? The Americans - Havelock/Hamil very hard to separate, arguably Hamil a better rider at his peak, but Hancock has the better longevity and an extra world title - that would probably see him edge it for me. Shawn would have to rank higher than Kelly for me - missed out on the world title only by a run off, won countless major WC qualifying meetings, was the best poerformer for the USA in internationals over the course of the 80s, and under a GP system would have been in the mix for the title on a number of occasions. Kelly tbh never achieved anywhere near what his ability could have allowed him to. Boogaloo would have to be ahead of Preson for me (unless it was round Hyde Rd where he was awful!) - two World Pairs titles, a mainstay of the US 80s test side, a top BL performer for the first half of the 80s - arguably the best rider never to make a World Final? Also - if you have Jack Milne, you possibly need to also have Cordy in the top 10 as well? The Aussies - peopel pushing for inclusion of Airey, Boulger and Biggs - but who do you leave out to accomodate them - Sidney would have a fit if you left out Crump senior! And I really don't think Gundersen can rank ahead of Nielsen - Hans had a better record in World Finals, qualifiers, internationals, BL, BLRC , not to mention how many titles he would have won under a GP system!

In a way that's good news, hopefully means he will acceptance wildcat for next year's gp , which I believe he said he would decline if he missed out in qualifying In a way that's good news, hopefully means he will accept the wildcard for next year's gp , which I believe he said he would decline if he missed out in qualifying

Interested on the reasoning for j trump being so low on realist of auspices as I'd say he has to be one of the top 10 of all time for all nations. also wonder why Hans only 3rd on your list of danes? agree on muller, an incredibly talented rider, who had he raced regularly in Britain and/or concentrated on speedway would have achieved much more and no doubt be far more respected. I was there in norden when he cleaned up, but look also at the riders he finished ahead of at Wembley in 81 - he was a very very good rider.

Emil Hampel Gollob Crump

wash your mouth out Sidney! He was class for the Aces too. Holds the record for most NZ national titles, top scored in NZ's only WTC triumph, 3rd in the BLRC in 1980, and spearheaded the Aces 1982 BL title winning team - he has to be in the top5! My lists: NZ 1 Mauger 2. Briggs 3. Moore 4. Shirra 5. Ross England 1. Peter Collins 2. Craven 3. Lee 4. Parker 5. Loram Australia 1 J Crump 2. J Young 3. Adams 4. V Duggan 5. Sanders Would expect both Holder and Ward to make this list by the end of the decade Denmark 1 Nielsen 2 Olsen 3 Gundersen 4 N Pedersen 5 Jan O Pedersen USA 1 Penhall 2 Hancock 3 Hamil 4 Milne 5 Ermolenko (Autry and S Moran just missing out) Sweden 1 Fundin 2 Rickardsson 3 Michanek 4 Knutsson 5 P Jonsson Poland 1 Gollob 2 Hampel 3 Plech 4 Jancarz 5 Woryna Russia 1 Plechanov 2 Emil 3 Samorodov 4 kurilenko 5 Chlynovski

that awkward moment when your sarcasm is so advanced that people actually think that you are stupid...

start of the season i though Hampel, and even leading into the swedish GP I thought so, but he's just not looking as good as the last two years. At the moment I'd have to say Nicki Pedersen is looking the best rider in the world, so he'd be my pick, but there are still 6 riders with realistic chances. I'll go: 1 N Pedersen 2 C Holder 3 Crump

you've misunderstood impartial one's proposal Falcace - re-read his suggested point system and i'm sure you'll understand what he means.

actually seven, if you include Chris Morton. This season,on a like for like basis (i.e. including bonus points) I think there will be two - Holder and Ward. But... if the same heat format had been in effect in 1978, and gate positions were fixed, I think at most two would have averaged over 10. And, given that there were twice as many teams in 1978, I guess that proves that there is a greater concentration of top riders in the EL these days....

but if you compare with say Moto GP or Formula I, in those events there is only one race per GP. So the winner of that one race is the winner of the GP, and understandably, gets the most points. Speedway GP, the riders have five to seven races, the best rider on the night (i.e. the one who does the best in all races) is likely to finish with the most points, BUT will not neccesarily be the rider who wins the final, and hence the GP. I have no issue with this, Of course, another way to look at it would be to say that "qualifying" in Formula I is the same as the first 20 heats of the Speedway GP, but I'm not sure you can really compare the two like that. the counter-example to your suggested points system though would be that a rider could win 72 races and finish 2nd in 12 others over a season, and miss out on the world title to someone who won 12 races, finished second in 60 and last in 12. both are equally unlikely IMHO, and i don't belive "extreme" examples are the best way to prove/dis-prove a particular system.