waiheke1

in 2012, 10th place finished with 69 pts, 15th with 57 points . I would say scoring 57-69 points would class as "about the same" as Harris's 65 points. So, I thinks its perfectly feasible he'll score about the same as Harris and still end up 14th. Who will he push back to 15th - on paper he's probably the worst rider in the field, but I think someone has to end up disappointing (akin to Bjerre last year). If I had to pick a name I'd say Zagar or KK. Even if Tai doesn't finish last, I don't think he'llbe disgraced. To reiterate, my view is that if any of the major Speedway nations (I'd class these as being Denmark, Sweden, Poland, Australia and possibly Russia) failed to have a qualifier, then I'd be fine with them receiving one of the wildcard slots so longs as they had a rider of international quality and it wasn't at the expense of a genuine title contender.

i said if he makes the top 12 he will have done well, not that i expect him to make the top 12. tbh i think he'llfinish 14th, though not sure who will be last.

I don't understand why so many Brits are anti Tai -he's the best prospect you have at present - I'd suggest the only rider you have potentially cpaable of finishing top 8 within the next few years. Yes he's been given the spot because he's British, but if there was no Pole, Swedish, Danish or Australian rider qualified, I'd be fine with them being given a spot too. It's not like yester year where you'd have 5 sub-standard Continental riders given spots (or 4 plus Muller who was class) - this is one spot, and Tai is not far (IMHO) from being one of the top 15 riders in the world. How will he go - tbhm, I think he'll score about the same as HArris did last year, but in what is a much stronger field. I'd expect a couple of semi final appearances, and if he makes the top 12 he'll have done well. Hopefully in 2014 he'll be able to make a genuine push for top8 and qualification in his own right.

Viktor Kuznetsov scoring 10 points in the 1986 World Final to finish 5th. He actually scored a maximum (it might have been paid) - and it was his first BL outing of the season! Not sure this was that big of a surprise - Finn was always an enigma, so the fact that he managed 4 good rides out of 5 (as opposed to 1-3 good rides out of 5) wasn't hugely unexpected. That 84 Cradley side was still a damn good team - 4 world class riders (all of home rode Hyde Rd well) in Gundersen, King, Collins and Grahame, a good second string in Simon Cross, the enigmatic Finn Jensen and Stephen Collins (who it's fair to say was rubbish).

Briggs to my mind is one of the five post -WW2 riders for whom a real argument could be made that they were the greatest ever (othersbeing Mauger, Fundin, Nielsen and Rikkardson). I would have loved to see him around Hyde Rd. The meeting I would love to see would be an individiual meeting at Hyde Rd with the following line-up (excludes those who never rode the track, though obviously would have loved to see the likes of Ward, Gollob, Crump Jnr, Emil, Holder racing that hallowed track): Mauger, Briggs, Moore, Ross, Morton, Collins, Carter, Parker, Craven, Olsen, Gundersen, Nielsen, Penhall, S Moran, Fundin, Crump snr. That would be some meeting I reckon.

.Going back to the original question - is this the strongest line up ever? Two ways I reckon you can look at this. Firstrly, in absolute terms. Obviously comparing between eras is impossible – much as you can debate whether Olsen was better than Gundersen was better than Pedersen, it’ s always going to come down to opinions. And you can often only really appreciate the quality of a field in hindsight – for example, Rob points to the 95 GP as being incredibly strong, but partly that view is because we know what the likes of Crump and Gollob have gone on to achieve. 1981 was unquestionably the strongest line up of the 80s, but at the time of the final it contained only 2 Word champions (Lee and Olsen) – of course it also contained the 4 riders (Penhall, Muller, Nielsen, Gundersen) who would win the next finals, 3 others (Carter, Knudsen, Jessup)who would have ben champion had luck gone for them rather than against them on final day , and 3 other riders who were genuine world class at the time (Morton, ANdersson, Ross) – so only looking back do we really appreciate how strong that field was. Looking at todays’ field it looks very good, but until we know what the likes of Ward, Emil and Holder go onto achieve, we ‘ll be somewhat limited in our perspective. That said, with 4 world champions in the field, Ward and Emil who if they fulfil their potential will be regarded as all time greats, 2 others who have appeared on the podium (Jonsson, Hampel), others who have been good enough to win individual GPO (Lindback, Lindgren), while the rest are all top riders, it is certainly right up there. The second way to compare strength is to look at what proportion of the world’s top 15 riders are in the field (or who is missing). Now, the line up isn’t as strong as it could be – you’d probably replace Tai with MJ, and maybe Zagar and KK with G Laguta and Kolodisez , but these are pretty minor changes. The line up isn’t missing anyone that you’d consider to be a strong rostrum prospect. Tai has been derided on here, but he’d still be in the top 25 in the world. Has threr been another World Final/GP series where the worst rider was still in the top 25 riders in the world? Compare that with say the world finals of the 80s, where you had the likes of Starostin, Kroeze, Ondrasik etc. in finals, none of whom would have been in the top 50(or even 100) riders in the world . Those world finals also routinely were missing riders who would have been amongst the favourites had they qualified – Mauger and Olsen in 80, Gundersen in 82, Morton and Carter in 84, Carter again in 85, S Moran and Wigg in 86, Jan O in 89. Were those riders missing because they weren’t good enough – no, they missed out due to one bad meeting, getting injured at the wrong time, and a qualifying system which gave a much easier qualifying route (based on nationality ) to a pool of sub standard riders ( if you exclude Muller, riders from the continental final averaged around 4 points per final, 2 of which were earned from beating the other continental riders). My opinion –next year’s line up is one of the strongest line ups of all time, and in ten years time it may be viewed as the strongest ever.

twk . i know you dont believe the qualification system is fair. But what is it about the format of the gps themselves that you think is unfair?

Sam ermolenko at odsal in 85. scraped through qualifying, not racing in the UK, only about a 7pt man in bl the previous season, world final debut, and only missed out on the title in a run off.

And before you say darcy ward, he turned down the chance last season, one would suspect due to the polish one gp rider rule and his " other issue", not due to a lack of desire to be world champ or a flaw in the gp system Sorry that comment was in response to blazeaways question a couple of posts up, can't work out how to quote on this phone

but i think the wild cards are a better way of ensuring the strongest field, if u compare the performance over the last few seasons of qualifies vs wildcards i think thecwildcards would have outperformed them overtime, even with the token brit pick

Flying shale is an excellent simulation game i believe still available online from roo games. it is based on the speedway scene board games

You could say the same about Champions League football for example. The only way around tghis would be to stage qualifier sat the start of the season, but I think that is simply not practical due to the level of commitment (sponsors etc) required to compete in the GP, unfair on clubs not knowing if a rider will be in the GP etc. Unless you are one of the people who makes that decision, you can't know for sure that that's the case surely? I'd suspect that even in those cases, Ward and Hampel would still get picks. Ward is a sensational talent, and from both a sporting and commerical perspective its hard to see IMG leaving him out. It would be farcical if Hampel got left out, and I can't think of any instances where someone so deserving of a pick was ignored. Sidney - previously you've been pretty vocal about increasing the number of slots available to qualifiers from outside the GP and reducing the number of "awarded" slots, despite the fact that the latter is a more effective way of ensuring the best riders are in the series. Have you changed your viewpoint? Of course one issue is that without psychic powers, you can never be certain that the 15 riders you think will be the best in 2013 will actually be the best come next year - but best you can do is take past performances (along with a subjective view on "potential") to choose this. The best way to ensure the top riders qualified may be to replace the knock out qualifiers with a qualifying series, and perhaps bonus points awarded additionally for performances in domestic leagues, WC events, U21 WC? However, not sure that would be practical, and the current system does at leave the possibility, however remore, of a romantic surprise qualifier. Whats the point of qualifiers ? To allow riders the opportunity to qualify on merit from outside the series? It appears a farce? Care to elaborate? Face fits?Right country?How many others from your country in the GP already? The world's two largest sporting events, World Cup football and Olympics have restrictions on number of participants from any particular regio/country. Formula I awards all the driving sports based on a range of factors (including commercial). Injured so welcome back? Were/are you really opposed to Emil and Nikci being granted Wildcards last year, or Hampel next year? Do you think the GP is better or worse for their inclusion? Work out a system that gets the best 15 or 20 riders in the GPs. Any suggestions? Get rid of qualifiers and just award places based on certain criteria?

Agree.

You could walk from Eden park to western springs in about half an hour. I think u should say, if marketed properly, the test cricket could benefit from the gp.

If holder wins the wc this yeardoes that change peoples list of great aussies ? leapfrogging ward sanders crumb snr?

Jonsson last three seasons: 9th, 2nd, 9th (probable) Hampel: 2nd, 3rd, 10th? (with almost half the series missed) Add to that that there are already two Swedes likely to be in the series, but only one Pole, and I think Hampel is clearly ahead of Jonsson So, I think 3 of the WC are "nailed on" - Ward, Hampel, Tai. On the "Tai" thread I've stated my reasons why I believe Britain deserve a spot - but to add to that, World Cup football for example has a certain number of places based on region, to ensure a diversity of countries qualifying (otherwise it is likely there would be no Asian/Oceanian teams in the finals). It's one spot, not the five that used to be gifted to the continentals , so while I respect the views of those who don't believe Britain should get a spot - I think they should get behind Tai 100% . For the 4th slot I'd suggest there are four contenders (assuming none of these qualify through the Challenge) AJ - Pros: runner up in 2011, 9th(?) in 2012, Cons: 2nd time in three seasons outside top8, already two Swedes qualified Vaculik: Excellent pefrmances in GPS, no other Slovakians in field NKI: Pros: Outstanding rider of 2012 of those outside the GP series. Only one Dane already in field. Cons: Poor GP record MJJ: Pros: Only one Dane in field, youngest and arguably brightest talent of the lot. Cons: Currently probably the weakest of the 4 riders. Personally, I'd give it to AJ, but would be a very close call over Vaculik and NKI - so fingers crossed they make it through the Challenge.

Valid points Humphrey. However, I'd suggest F1 would probaby not be devalued if it dropped to 16 drivers. Tennis tournaments are straight knock out affairs (hence a larger number of particpants can be used) and I'd also suggest the gap between a player ranked say ten and a player ranked 100 is a lot smaller in tennis than in speedway. But also most sports have a certain number which just mathematically works - for tennis its 128, for the Football World Cup I'd say its 32, for the Euros I'd say its 16 (I think the Rugby World Cup would benefit from dropping to 16) for SPeedway I think 16 is the number that "just works." I'm really looking forward to next year's GP, as assuming the "right" qualifiers from the challenge (say NKI, Vaculik, MJJ) you'd have a line up next year where potentially any of the riders (exceptions perhaps being Tai and MJJ) could be rostrum contenders, and some top quality riders would miss out on the top 8. Outside of that, I'd say you're really only missing G Laguta of the rider's you'd expect able to make an impact, although there's a plethora of young Polish talent (Pawlickis, Dudek, Janowski, Zmarzlik) who could make the grade over the next couple of years. To me, that indicates that they have the numbers right.

Do you think there ay be just the tiniest bit of difference between seeking out a camera, running up to it and swearing into it vs. reacting when you have a camera thrust into your face? I suggest that had Twitter been around 20 years ago the riders would havecome across equally badly! That said, watching footage of th 82 World Final, it is amazing how relatively calm and polite KC is on the phone to the ref. That said, when the track mic man interviewed him he said he was going to sue the referee, I'm not sure if that is better or worse than what Pedersen said? Also, we live in time where the C word is used on TV - I susect that swearing in the media has become more "acceptable" and this is reflected in the usage by riders. I'm not sure anyone who has posted on here is blind to Nicki's faults? The incident itself has divided opinion, but i think the majority view is that Nicki was unlucky. Most agree that Nicki can be "dirty" but also "box office" - but also that almost all World Champions have that hard edge - was Penhall dirty because he barged Nielsen aside in 81 and took Carter to the fence in 82? His outbursts about the ref has been defended on the grounds that SKy knew exacty what the reaction would be when they thrust the camera in his face, but I don't think anyone has condoned his comments about AJ Exactly. Imagine the reaction if Sky tried to interview Alex Ferguson a minute after a controversial penalty had been given against Utd in the run in to te title. This is a strange hyprocricy in general - Rock stars can swear, do drugs, cheat on their partners - it's expected. But when sportsmen - who have similar amounts of money and fame from a young age - do the same it is scandalous. Anyway my thoughts: Nicki was unlucky, and understandably angry about it. I'm sure the broadcasters won't be unhappy about his rant. People moan about today's riders being bland, but then moan when someone is like Nicki. Was there ever a less popular (outside of his own team's support) than Kenny Carter, but I reckon he must have guaranteed a few hundred extra on the gate each meeting, becase everyone loves to boo the pantomime villain. If Nickis was excluded on reputation, he has no-one to blame but himself, just as if Joey Barton puts the heed on someone, he might get a less sympathetic reaction than say Zidane did. Will Nicki's "dirtiness" cloud how he is viewed by history - I doubt it (and he won't care if it does). Schumacher is still viewed as a Formula I great but he could certainly be dirty. but by saying that, are you saying that you know Blazeaway to be one thereby indicating ...

perhaps they should move the GP to 7 am on the Monday morning. Should avoid clashing with any other local sports events, and would be a more viewer friendy slot for the Northern Hempisphere viewers. Kiwi - do you reckon the 2012 GP would be the highest attendance for any NZ sporting event outside of AB tests? I'm struggling to think of any others that would get around 15k, though I may be overlooking something obvious?

We're having a superb GP this season, with some great racing, a title race which looks like going right down to the wire, and (IMHO) the best and fairest points system the GP has had - why would you try to tinker with that formula? The football Euro Champs is a classic example - it's a brilliant tournament, normally a super standard of football, and 16 teams works perfectly for a tournament in which practically every match has something hingeing on it. Of course some very good teams have missed out on qualifying, hence the move now to a more bloated 24 team tournament, at which the standard will not be so high, and the format not as "clean". I agree with Blazeaway, that to increase the numer would dilute the quality of the riders. Yes some good riders may miss out, but that's sport. You really don't believe there are 16 riders of suitable quality around currently? And surely practically ANY sport (golf might be a exception?) you are going to dilute the quality if you go from 16 to 24 participants? TBH I can't see an increase happenning, as others have mentioned cost being the main factor.

Test cricket in nz would be very lucky to get a couple of thousand people last years gp got 15000 so not quite sure what your point is? if anything crowds to both may benefit slightly due to extra brit presence in Auckland

Hampel qualifying is certainly possible, though I'd say itshighly improbable. I can't see any reason for him to really try to bust a gut in the last few meetngs (he can't make top 3 and must know he will be given a spot next year if he doesn't make the top 8) - so I'd guess he'll ease his way back into racing in preparation for next year. If he does make it, you can only see it being at the expense of AJ dropping out of the top8, and if that was the case I would expect AJ to be given a wildcard for next year.

My word some people are hard to please. Off the top of my head there were the following races from the meetign which were absolutely top drawer: Crump v Pedersen, Emil vs Holder and both Semis. Plenty of other decent races as well. I think Rob (lucifer Sam) mentioned the 81 World Final and the Penhall Olsn race. Judging by some of the comments on here, I bet some people would have gone home from Wembley 81 unhappy saying: There were only two decent races. No Brit on the podium, how depressing. Three top competitors riders had there hopes dashed by engine failures, whato an unfair system. Total anti-climax with Penhall just needig a point from his last ride. Four continental riders were totally out of their depth, what a joke giving slots to riders based on nationality. What a farce that PC culdn't enter the world champs this year - how can anyone call Penhall World Champion when not all riders in the world got to take part. The crowd was nowhere near as good as those in the 40s and 50s. Wembley is old and run down, and accomodation in London is two expensive. Beer is more expensive than in my local as well. Pre-meetig entertainment was rubbish, and didn't think much of those start tarts. You know what, I might not go to a Wembley final ever again... I thought it was an excellent meeting, in an excellent GP series, think people shoudl appreciate what they have with this GP

Personally, I think Tai should be in the field next year. GB (or specifically England) is still one of the top 5 speedway nations in the world when you take into account riding strngth, riding numbers, domestic league strength and commercial considerations (e.g crowds attending the GP, and presumably also televised viewing figures). Therefore, I believe they deserve one spot, just as I'd support a Wildcard for a Dane or a Swede in the not impossible event that they failed to have a qualifier for a season (next year for example, it would be possible to see a t op8 of say Gollob Hampel, Emil, Darcy, Holder, Crump, Hancock, and one of Jonsson/Vaculi/Pedersen). Over the years lots of much smaller speedway nations than England have been granted world final spots, and with riders that were utterly uncompetitive - Tai and Harris may not be in the top 10 riders in the world, but they would certainly be in the top 30, and not out of their depth. So, if we are having one British spot then in my view it has to go either to Harris (arguaby still the best Brit) or Tai (arguably the Brit with most potential that would eb competitive at this stage). Harris, with all due respect to both riders, is a poor man's Chris Morton- and the mighty Mort never finished better than 8th in a World Final. At his peak (83/84) he could have challenged for a rosutrum spot undr a GP format - but the fact is that both Chris's gating ws simply not good enough at the highest evel, and it is hard to see Harris ever making the top8 again over a season, let alone a rostrum spot. Tai I think by 2015 could potentially be making the top 8 on merit,and by the end of the decade be callenging for a rostrum spot - so to my mind he has to be the number one option for the British GP spot for next year.

Hampel and Ward are nailed to be offerred the first two wildcards. Tai and Vaculik are almost certain to get the other two. The only way I can see tis changing is if: 1. Lindback makes the top 8. If so, whoever drops out of the current top8 would likely get a wildcard next year at the expense of Tai/Vaculik (probably the latter) - unless it was Fast freddie in which case he may miss out. 2. If Vaculik qualifies via the Challenge. In that instance I think the last wildcard would be likely to go to (in order, assuming they don't qualify through the challenge): NKI, Lindback, MJJ, G Laguta. Personally, I'd have G Laguta ehind NKI as the next best rider outside the GP, but the above would be my guess. In terms of the GP Challenge: I'd like to see NKI, Vaculik and either Lindback/MJJ qualify. Mr prediction though would be NKI, Pavlic and Lindback. On the Ward issue - discussion here is about who should be in nxt year's GP, which should only include discussion on speedway issues. I remember suggesting that Phil Rising was unwise posting shortly after the trial a thread on how great Darcy is - I thought it inappropriately timed - but similarly, I think people re-raising the issue on this thread are out of line. No one is defending Darcy's actions, and I certainly wouldn't suggest that just bcause he was found not guilty that it makes eveything ok - but IMHO this is not the place to express those opinions.