waiheke1

does that inclide countries like nz where over a year, excluding the nz gp, you might get to see highlights of three meetings shown months after the meeting?

I had Peter Collins ahead of Craven for a numbe of reasons: 1. Personal bias - COllins is one of my favourite all time riders 2. For both PCs (and also Lee) the stats alone do not truly reflect what brilliant riders there were - however while there is ample evidence of Collins' brilliance (77 inter-contrinetal final, world finals of 76/77 etc) available to view (and of course i saw him regularly around hyde Rd) to see jnust how good he was, there isn't similar footage available for a young un like me to see how ggod the other PC was 3. Collins may have one world title less, but picked up multiple world pairs titles, the consecutive maximums in WTC finals etc,which i think tends to even things out 4. Under a GP system, I think Collins may have "out titled" Craven 2-1. 5. Craven did have his career tragically cut short, but remember Collins "retired" from British speedway at the age of 26. He was still world class when he returned, but never again lookedd likely to add to his individal title. Them's my reasons Sidney, I appreciate that many would place them in a different order. On John Louis - dond't get me wrong , he was world class. The reasons I rated Simmons/Jessup/Carter higher was: Jessup - 2nd in the World in 80, and but for engine troubles could have added a world title in 80 and another runners up medal in 81. Under a GP system would have arugably been world champ in 1980 and runner-up in 81. (just finished reading Mike Lee's autobiography and he mentions how cheap DJ was - makes you wonder if those critical engine probklems could have been avoided if he'd spent a little bit more?) Simmons- multiple world pairs titles with different partners, as well as runner up in the individual in 76. Carter - has an inferior record in world finals to Louis,BUT there were obviously extenuating circumstances in both 81 and 82, and he would have been a hot favourite in 85 had injury not intervened. Add to that his back to back BLRC titles (look at the other riders to have done this, there are only the all time greats) and British titles (one on one leg), as well as the fact that I beklieve he was the last Brit to top the BL averages - and I think he has to rank ahead of tiger Louis. Agree - after the top three I think there is a group of riders (likes of Williams, Parker, Loram etc) who would likely rank above the likes of Carter/Jessup etc.

harris finished top 8 once in how many attempts? the chances of him doing it in this years line up would be minimal. Im sure tai will be top 8, maybe even top 3 , one day, i just cant see it being this season (though can see him making a couple of semis and maybe a final). if you do see him making top 8- which 7 riders do u see him finishing above? dont get me wrong, i would love to see him finish top 8 this year - but i'd also like to take maria sharapova and angelina jolie home for a cup of tea and a lie down...

True, my bad!

in his home country, not the nz gp. i'd be surprised if he makes the semis in auckland, but the beauty of this year's line up is that all of the 15 are capable of making the final

collins, craven,lee for me. I can see valid arguments for and against ranking carter above/below simmons and jessup, but think you'd certainly have to rank him ahead of crash, louis and wilson, none of whom (imho) were ever really genuine world title contenders.

All right, this meeting is now just a fortnight away, I am really looking forward to this, my thoughts on how the riders line up: Favourites Reigning World Champ Chris Holder had a poor meeting last time around, however I think that was more down to the birth of his son that morning then any dis-like for the Western pring track. The old boys Gollob and Hancock were comfortably the best riders at the last NZ GP, and both will be wanting a good performance this time around if they are to push to add a afurther world title to their collection. Contenders: Nicki P arguably the best rider in the world last year (when taking into account the WTC and domestic leagues) and will be looking to go one better this year. A finalist at Auckland last time around. Young brigade Darcy and Emil are both highly fancied to do well this year, and if the surface is as conducive to racing as last year it should suit them both. Emil was involved in the best race of the evening and made the semis last time around, Darcy I can’t see being dis-advantaged by the fact he hasn’t ridden there before. Antonio Lindback was very impressive in Auckland last year, unfortunately he then failed to reproduce that form until the second half of the season. Seems to be strongly tipped as an outside this year. Hampel had back-to back podium finishes in 2010/11 and looked on track to do the same last year before injury halted his season. Finished second in Auckland last time around, and will be looking to show he is fully recovered from injury with a similar performance this time around. Outsiders: Andreas Jonsson was arguably the biggest disappointment last year, both in the Auckland GP and the GP series as a whole. This seaons will show whether last season was an aberration, or if 2011 was a “one off” rostrum finish. NKI was superb in domestic speedway in 2012, this is his chance to show he can cut it at GP level. Martin Vaculik showed in Hampel’s absence last year that he is one rider who can cut it at this level, but this year he will have a lot more pressure on him and the line up is much tougher. Freddie Lindgren scraped into the semi finals in Auckland last year without ever looking totally convincing, will be looking for a convincing season opener in his quest to establish himself as a top 8 rider. Tail enders: KK and Zagar are both very decent riders, but I’d ve very surprised to see ether making the semis, much as I would like to see the new Aces number 1 do well. Tai Woffinden I can see being more impressive than Chris Harris was last year, but also likely to score less points in what is a much stronger line up. The local wildcard: Jason Bunyan brought the house down by picking up a point in his final ride last year, he’ll be doing very well if he can repeat the same score this year. My picks: Top three of Holder, Gollob and Hancock, being joined in the semis by Emil, Ward, Pedersen, Lindback and Hampel.

Thanks for the replies, as a bit of a stats geek myself I found it interesting. Just a few thoughts. I think in determining "greatness" to look at World Final perfrmances only is a bit limiting. Not considering for example Barry Briggs consecutive BLRC titles, Hans Nielsen’s dominance of the BL, or Peter Collins team riding and World Pairs titles with 5(?) different partners, does them a disservice. But I do appreciate that in depth statistical analysis of all competitions would be incredibly time consuming! With a statistical approach focusing on World Finals only , I think you need to have some sort of “bonus” system to reward world titles and rostrum finishes. A 13 point display which earns a third spot is surely not equivalent to one such as Gunderrsen’s title winning display in 1985 . Also seems ludicrous that Lee (one world title, two third places) could finish behind Carter (5th placed highest finish) I like the idea of adjusting for engine failures and crashes which were not purely rider error. However, rather than excluding these, perhaps a better approach would be to take the riders position at the time of the incident. So carter would get a second place for his e/f in 81 and a third for his fall in 82. If you are adjusting, I think you do need to adjust for the Collins fall you mentioned too. Personally, I think a better approach would be to look at rider’s top 5 world finals, rathe r than three consecutive, and perhaps adding 2 points to the meeting score for winning the event, 1 point for second and 0.5 points for third, or something like that. I think this allows reward of performance over a period of time, and doesn’t unfairly penalize riders who may have consistently made world finals but had the odd “off” meeting. Carter vs Lee is an interesting one, in that their peaks didn’t really overlap. Lee was great 1977-80 and 1983, Carter from 80-85 (but missed large chunks of 84/85 with injury), so only in 1983 were they both world class at the same time – in that year I believe Lee’s performances outstripped Carter’s. Personally, at the time (I started going in 81) I always ranked Carter above Lee, I guess because for most for that period KC was the better rider of the two, and bvecuase I watched most of my speedqay at Hyde Rd (and also the Shay) both tracks where Carter excelled I also did some statistical analysis a while back (using a method similar to what I outlined above with best 5 performances in each stage evaluated with bonus points for rostrum finishes and qualification) on the world finals (and qualifiers ) of the 80s, Lee I think I had being eliminated at overseas final stage, while Carter made the final and finished 6th. However, using the same system I also had Lee placing fifth in a best of the 70s final. . However, looking back at their careers I think you have to rank Lee ahead of Carter, certainly in terms of pure talent but also in terms of achievement. As a footnote, I was at Odsal when both rode their final world chsmpionship meetings, and what a sad way for two English greats to bow out. It was the British semi final 1986, Lee started with a last and then failed to finish any of his remaining rides. Carter had only two points at the interval (on his home track!), but won his last two rides and a run-off to qualify for the British final – which of course he wouldn’t ride in, as less than a week later he was dead. If you want a defining moment in the deline of English speedway, that particular emeting stands out for me (even if England did end with a healthy number of finalists that year, none of them were nearly as talented as Lee and Carter, the two Englishmen of the generation genuinely good enough to have been world Champ.

I'd be surprised if he makes much of a difference to the crowd tbh, maybe put a max extra couple of hundred if that on the gate I would have thought. However That said, he was pretty heavily involved in the pre-meeting media coverage last time around,, so maybe I am underselling him. I wouldn't argue with Buckleys right to influence the wildcard choice, but as a speedway fan (and a kiwi) i personally would rather the spot had gone to Batch. No different though to the guaranteed host entry into the old one off world finals, Henry Kroeze springs to mind, and of course the wildcard for the Italian GP has often been an uncompetitive local rider. It's not a phenomenom particular to speedway either, plenty of sports have guaranteed spots for the hosts. Agree - I think every NZ speedway fan is very grateful that he has done it. Sports i guess is an area in which a lot of otherwise savvy business men are willing to lose money to fulfil their love of sport (or egos). Buckley clearly falls into the first cateogry (i.e. doing it because he loves speedway) , however clearly he was unhappy with how much money he lost last year and i'm sure would not be willing to pump endless money into the GP. Prices have gone up this year, so on the same crowd he'd be pulling in approx an extra $150-200k, and I guess potentially costs could be lower this year. Weather will be a big factor, if it rains i'd imagine the attendance could fall as low as 10,000 people? I haven't seen whether the government or Auckland council are coming to the aprty this time around, tbh i think its a disgrace if they don't. I believe there was a similar issue with the A1 where the benefactor behind NZ's entry and event put in large amounts of money and was disillusioned with the lack of support from NZ government.

Not your best post Sid - as others have pointed our hardly recent, and been done many times since. I'd also disagree that he was "very lucky" - you needed luck to go with you on the night to be World Champ under the old system and while luck did go with Penhall (Les Collins dropping points in his easiest ride, Carter falling off when Penhall was in second denied Les a run-off, and f course the ref getting the decision correct - always a chance he could hav emade the wrong call) - but no more so than many other world champs. i would have thought it would be more common under the gp system than the old system (don't know if either is an easier feat than the other), but that doesn't seem to be the case. Also - look at this year. Holder is the rider - IMHO- the most likely to win the title. However, the chances are that he won't . IF that seems contradictory - Holder I would say has a 1 in 4 or 1 in5 chance of being the champion (if you were to set odds). So, there is a 75 or 80% chance that the winner will be someone else. a bit simplistic to say holder would have been elminated. Firstly, there didn't used to be qualifiers in March, so he wouldn't have been racing the day his son was born. Secondly, the standard of the field for an early qualifying round would have been lower than the NZ GP, so a similar performance could easily have seen him secure enough points to qualify. are you a kiwi in disguise

interesting reading. one small point - i think there is something wrong with the way the percentages are calculated for questions which allowed multiple answers. For exampe, question 10 says 70% of people have been to Cardiff and 30% have been to another GP. Which comes to 100%. This would imply that no-one who has been to Cardiff has been to another GP, and noone who has been to another GP has been to Cardiff - and I would be very surprised if that was the case.

Ok my bets: hancock MORE £5 Gollob more £5 ward more £10 Zagar less £5 bunyan less £15 jonsson less £5

But surely they would have satelite coverage?

The leaderboard now no longer picks up Chris Holder - possibly it's trying to look up "Craig" Holder and not finding any data?

Genuine question - where would a world final be held in the uk? cardiff i believe is not an option in september? odsal clearly a no go. the new olympic stadium?

thats what id like to see happen, with each of those six nations taking on each other home and away over a two year period (so needing to find space in the calendar for 5 tests per nation each year), with a "best of three" series for the top two teams to find the word test champion.

for the finsal itself i'm sure you are right. but there's no way you'd get 30000 to cardiff for a qualifying meeting, and how often would the uk host the finsl - once every 5 years?

Hancock gollob hampel lindback

Once bet is placed, can it be changed prior to the gp?

the one off final vs GP debate has been done to death, and I'm firmly in the pro GP camp, but I can't agree with some of the things being argued here. 1. I'd certainly expect the attendance at a one off final to exceed that for a GP in that country, and certainly not expect a final to be held in a smaller venue than the GPs currently are 2. I wiould be almost certain that a one off final would be shown live on TV, and assume that the major qualifying rounds would be too under that format 3. That said, I'd be pretty confident that TOTAL ATTENDANCE and TOTAL VIEWING FIGURES for the GP series would exceed those for a one off Final (including qualifiers)

but he doesnt have a conviction if he did he would have had to have declared it on his visa applucation and a decision made by the authorities. given the penalty he got for the offence was only a fine i inagine he would have been ok - but clearly this would have been the key reason his lawyers pushed for no conviction to be recorded.

How is it detrimental to speedways credibilty, when most sports have playoffs for their premier club competitions? nrl,nfl,ipl,super 15, nbl, heineken cup, baseball world series etc. Btw, why are so many peopke opposed to dirt deflectors? where we sat at the nz gp (entry yo thitd bend a couple of metres above the fenceline) we had a great view, without the deflectors we would have been covered with shale each lap. How is it detrimental to speedways credibilty, when most sports have playoffs for their premier club competitions? nrl,nfl,ipl,super 15, nbl, heineken cup, baseball world series etc. Btw, why are so many peopke opposed to dirt deflectors? where we sat at the nz gp (entry yo thitd bend a couple of metres above the fenceline) we had a great view, without the deflectors we would have been covered with shale each lap.

i think he'll get a visa for nz no problem and for the other gps too. cant say i agree with banning him from the sport- i'd think the extra spare time would make him more vulnerable to drink/drugs not less.far better, imho, for a mentor such as jason crump or even mike lee to take him on board and try to guide him through tge next couple of years.

ive read it in a few different auto biographies/biographies, so i think its pretty commonly regarded as fact that kelly did on occasion ride pissed and that both he and shaun enjoyed a smoke

Tbf, i dont have a huge issue with a rider taking recreational drugs in the off season per se. However, given the nz gp is a month away, and i believe cannabis stays in the system for a couple of months,it would mean he would be highly likely to fail a drugs test if tested. The main concern to me is thst he was fleeing the police and riding a bike while wasted, endangering not just his own life but that of others. One other thought: kelly moran is one of the most.popular riders of all time, yet allegedly rode speedway on occasion while so pissed he could barely stand, clearly endangering other riders. why the difference in attitude towards him and darcy - is it about different eras, or is it because kelly was a genuinely nice guy and darcy seems to be an utter twit?