waiheke1

Who was the best rider in 2013 is an opinion not fact. An opinion without facts to back it up is almost worthless. To me, omly two riders can have a decent argument made for being best I tbe world in 2013. One is tai, who I and I suspect 90 per cent of people, would choose. The other is hampel, who has some claim to being statistically the best ridrr in 2013. Yet to see a decent argument in favour of anyone else

Dont see the issue so long as editorial content is not reduced. Without the ads you'd pay a lot more for a copy of ss.

Darcy has far, far more natural ability than either of those two riders, and I have huge respect for both as riders, particularly KC who is the best visting rider I ever saw round Hyde Rd. If Ward does not become a multi world champion, he will have to be regarded as a wasted talent.

Steve brum - I cant figure out why you quoted me before posting this? Tbf, tai was probably the best rider in the world 2013. We, re now 2014 so it doesn't automatically follow that he is still the best rider in the world. I am no poole fan, but statistically jarek hampel was better than tai last year (appreciate that even stats are subjective, but both henry and I did ressonably extensive stat anakysis and both had hampel as top). Secondly, while stats show tai clearly outperformed Darcy last year, that doesnt mean tai is the better rider. Better in 2013 yes. But darcy had been far better in preceding seasons. So who is the better rider is a subjective opinion, id actually go with darcy, though he hasnt yet had a season as good as tais 2013.

How so? Hampel raced in two leagues, the same as tai. Except he raced in the tougher swedish league.

i'm sure if it was possible, Bill would have done so, given that the Stones have historically played at Western Springs when they have visited NZ. Its likely to be a double hit for Bill, the lost revenue from a Stones concert at the Springs allied with potential decrease in attendance at the speedway. its frankly ludicrous that auckland council and/or Tourism NZ aren't giving some backing to the event. if they each fronted 4 quid (thats $8) per head, that would be approximately $400k less (even assuming the reduced attendance figures being bandies around) that Bill would have lost over the last two seasons, and may be far more palatable for him. For the government bodies, i'm sure that would be far less than is brought in by visitors to the event. with respect, i can't see the Stones interfering too much with publicity for the GP, the Stones ill likely be amongst the lead story in print and tv, Speedway has got decent coverage in the spiorts sections of both mediums in the lead up to events, that should continue. The only area it may impact is radio coverage, where more focus may be given promoting the stones than the speedway. i think the fact that the guy fronting the event has lost a milluion bucks suggests the problem is very real, and i'd say at very best a 50/50 proposiation of the GP series being continued in NZ. Yes, estern Springs continues to host a number of non-bike speedway events, though presuure from the NIMBYs and a non motor sport friendly local government means the number of nights speeway can run at the Springs has been very much restricted.

But noone is arguing who is world champ. The question was who was the best rider in 2013, not who was world champ or who was best in the gps. Its an interesting discussion point, if you dont agree then no need to join in. Clearly results/ stats are going to be one of the key components of such a discussion, though not the be all and end all or thrre would be no point debating.

Colin m - are u saying that henry and my statistics are pointless, or that u are providing pointless stats. both henry and my stats are based on pretty much all meetings in 2013, so hampel would have finished at least second in my breakdown regsrdless of home country advantage for an extra couple of gps. Henry - I am interested in knowing details of your system. Interesting we had very similsr rankings ( I had holder 6th). Scb - agree to a large extent re hampel. However, he was the top rider in league speedway and in the swc. My ranking system does weigh gp results the most heavily, however even there he was the fourth ranked performer (bedind tai emil and darcy), and not that far behind. Tnt - I think nki should be number 5 in your swedish average list

really - do you think the causal fan could tell you ho will be riding at say number 13 next season under the old system? in fact, most on here could tell you 1-3 straight away, 4-8 with a bit of thinking, and would struggle to name 9-15 (except perhaps Harris at 15?). if anything, surely it makes is easier? exactly. look at other sports, 23 will always be associated with Micahel Jordan/Shane Warne, Beckham, C Ronaldo, Suarez, Dalglish will always be associated with 7 (and 23 in Beckhams case), Rossi as you point out with 46. tbh, i can see the logic in using 1-7 for league meetings, here number defines the race which the rider will appear in. the point wasn't to make the system simpler. I's surely to give merchndising benefits, and make riders more recognisable - perhaps the latter ont be immediate, but in a fe seasons wqhen people have seen riders earing the same numbner for a fe seasons, you'll be able to turn on and say there's Nicki in 666, rather than trying to think who finished seventh the pervious season . but GPs is surely where a rider is in the spotlight in terms of sponsorship and merchandising. Maybe it wont make a big difference, but even a few extra sales surely help, and i can't see anyway in which it would make things worse. re: merchandise claim being bogus. Have you ever noticed how a lot of sports fans get the number of their favourite player on their shirt? Do you think it possible someone like Michael Jordan got merchandising benefit from "23". Clearly having to riders with the same number is ludicrous, i'd imagine onlt one rider can have a number, and they hold that number until they retire? In case of multiple riders wanting the same number, surely its "first in first served", and in case of two riders already qualified for next year wanting the same number, then just give it to whoever qualified top. that was the whole point - yes for number 1-8 it showed where the rider finished last year (or 1-7 last year, as Jonsson didn't finish 8th in 2012), but for the other half of the field it didn't have a lot of meaning. anyone, agree with SCB can't believe its generated so much discussion, its a number, its not going to change the entertainment factor, the racing etc for better or worse, but if there are some small benefits, then why not.

i did some statsistical analsisis on this late last year, (http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=75014) taking into account performances in the GPs, domestic leagues, SWC, SEC and national championships. The top five were: 1 Jaroslaw Hampel 10.73 2 Tai Woffinden 10.73 3 Niels K Iversen 10.43 4 Emil Sayfutdinon 10.36 5 Darcy Ward 10.09 without having done that analysis, i'd have said Tai by a whisker from Emil, with a group comprising Hampel, NKI, Ward and Holder in no particular order a small way back i really don't see how you can label Tai lucky, despite your explanation. Surely both Hampel and NKI could be said to be luckier (in that they achieved rostrum spots due to injuries to others, and didn't suffer any major injuries themselves), and more consistent (when you look at performances in all events). I don't disagree with Darcy being labelled the most talented, and he would be my pick for World Champ this year. But as SCB points out, its going to be one hell of a battle with Tai, Emil, NKI, Holder, Hampel and potentially Nicki and Greg in the mix as well. Staying relatively injury free again is going to be a big factor.

i think people generally judge greatness on one of the three folloing criteria, or combination of them. 1. Based on personal judgement having seen riders in action. Most on here will not have seen those you list rider, nor is there sufficient video footage to establish a true judgement. 2. Based on "absolute" rsults. By which i mean, somone might judge usain bolt the greatest sprinter of all time, as he has set the world record time. this is a little more problematic in motorsports where the "athlete" is only p[art of the equaton, but i would imagine the above riders don't hold too many track records? 3. Results - ultimately i think most of us judge greatness on achievements. in speedway, the ultimate prize is the world individual champtionship - none of the riders you mention on more than one world title, many won none (i appreciate there are good reasons for this in a lot of cases). no-ones saying forget those riders, but i think its a fact that most on here don't have any real way of establishing just how good those riders were- and now that we are in the youtube age, i think riders 70s onwards are likely to be viewed more favourably than those prior to then, simply because there is plenty of footage to view to make compairsions, allied with achievements, anyway, my top 10 of all time. 1 Mauger 2 Rikkardson 3 Fundin 4 Briggs 5 Nielsen 6 J Crump 7 Olsen 8 Moore 9 Peter Collins 10 Penhall Craven, Gundersenn on a different day might edge into the list.

that might be the remaining ticket prices Phil, but early release tickets were as low as $100 (50 quid) - not much more than the speedway at $60 (30 quid). it may seems strange to some that the stones ill imact on gp attendance, but "big" bands may visit NZ only every five years or so, its not like the uk when you can see your favourite band play in the uk (or fly cheaply to europe to see them ) on a regular basis. obviosuly it ont affect the true speedway fans, byt they are quite limited in number, and certainly it will impact on the number of casual fans who may have come along if they didnt have anything else on that night. my inlaws are esterns srpings regulars, they go to every car meeting each season, they've been to the last two speedway gps but ill be missing this year to attned the stones.

Plech? Ahead of collins, lee, penhall, olsen, nielsen, pedersen? I know you quantified your list by saying it was the best u had seen, but surely you have seen all of those riders? Plech was good, but would be nowhere near a top 50 of thexlast 50 years for me.

Are u talking greatest riders, or putting together the best team. Makes a difference, as someone like peter collins who was a phenomenal team rider would likely make my list if its the latter but not if its the former

here's the article - was planning to post it myself. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11178564 i'm pretty sure it understates the attendance at the first GP - estimates at the time were around 17-20k, and that's from people who regularly attend western springs. but can't see them getting 25k, especially with the stons playing the same night. I'll be there with my whanau, hoping very much it isnt the last nz gp, but if it is will still be thankful for the three years that Bill has brought it to NZ. Stoked its going to be later this year, so the latter heats should be under lights, which does make it a better spectatcle. hope also the track is better than last year and more in line ith the first year track. really Bill B deservced much better support from auckland council and auckland/nz tourism - but motorspsorts doesn't seem to attract the same support from these bodies that a more gentile sport might. very interested also in how much he has had to pay BSI for the priviledge of hosting the gp. given that he holds the lease to western springs stadium, the two makor expenses must be the bsi fee (hich to be fair needs to cover the cost of shippin riders and equipment etc to NZ, which can't be cheap - but i ould very much like to know how much cream bsi are milking from this) and the track preparation.

I reckon a top three of kl bv and poole. Fourth spot pretty open, id say swindon wolves or coventry.

An mjj or pawlicki would be a heat leader surely?!? The el would be fantastic if u had that calibre at reserve?

Vaculik isnt that young? Did mjj do a full season last time he was here? Emil would be a decent signing and fits the description!

pawlicki?

Actually think it looks a solid team and ljung a good signing. BUT if the new heat format means lots of heat leader clashes, then the lack of top end strength could be a real issue -

Clearly what has been produced is not a perfect solution. But tbf, the two main things people seemed to want were more meetings and more brits, and this gives both. People seem to acknowledge cost cutting was needed to make things viable, but then gripe about prices not being reduced, ehich would have wiped out any brnrfit of cost cutting. You say you wouldnt miss tai, wsrd, nki, zagar or bjerre but... who do u really think you will miss out of the riders forced out by tbe changes? I think they should have also added a ten per cent reduction fot british riders, this would likely have been enough to ensure the likes of auty secured a team berth. Thinking back to the 80s when the mandstory junior rule came in, the msin impact was fircing down to the nl vetrrans who were now only 3rd hest leaders/second strings ( l collins kennet jessup etc) as well as plenty of decent second strings/reserves ( likes of l carr, courtney and a host of others). Anyway, this is probably the erong thread gor yhis debate anyway, but in summary I reckon far less people will stay away under this format than if they had ditched the stars.

Tbf scb specifically commented on pl, to which tsunami replied about trying to reverse the trend and scb still moaning. It may not have been tsunamis intent, but I think most would intetpret the redponse the same way scb did.

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Because its what yhe rules state. Though I agreee the rules dont make much sense, and one suspects may be changed before next year.

I'd imagine most sports tickets would have gone up threefold in real terms ovrr the same prriod. I think it is the quality of the entertsinment - whole package not purely the sport- against cusomer expectation and alternative choices and how well this is matketed, which is key.