waiheke1

For most, yes. Just as with football, most would selet their greats from 1930 onwards.

To be prdantic, jessup was the bookies favourite in 80, penhall was second favourite

I guess its relative - there are certainly arguments for it being less fair than the gp system, but lets not open that argument again!

i think i can justify their inclusion Sidney. Collins on just the one title, but as desperately unlucky not to win a second in 77, a performance that still ranks as arguably the greatest world final display of all time. Under a GP system he would have likely won two world titles. He won orld Pairs titles wityh FIVE different partners, achieved an unprecedented three consecutive WTC maximums, won every other major title (British Final, BLRC, Inter-continental etc.), topped the british averages, averaged over 11 on at leeast one occasion - and this despite the fact that he was never the same rider afetr the iinjury he sustained in 1980 at the age of 26. That's all without mentioning that he was arguably the greatest team rider of all time, and without going into the sheer breathtaking manner of some of his victories. Penhall was only 25 when he retired, having won back to back world titles, so who knows how many more he could have won. Under a GP system he would likely have won the same two titles, and possibly added a medal in 1980. Won most other major titles (orld PAirs, WTC, Inter continental, AMerican), and in 1981 as riding as well as any rider in history - hard to think of another season in which a rider was so dominant. The main rivals for those last to spots: Craven, who won two world titles, was one of the "big five", and could have won more but for his tragic death at a young age. Debate on another thread suggests however that he may never have won a title under a GP system, and not having seen footage of him racing I guess I may have some bias against him as I have no vidual evidence to show me ho good he really was. Gundersen won three world titles, and potentially could have won more but for his career ending injuries. Won multiple PAirs, WTC and BLRC titles, and pretty much every other major event. The onyl argument against him really is that even at his peak, he was arguably second best rider in the world to Hans , and under a GP system he may have been less successful. Nicki Pedersen seems to be the most under rated multipe world champion of alll time, especialyl given that all his three titles have been under a GP system so there can be no arguing about them being lucky. Perhaps his "dirty Nicki" person, and the fact that he is arguably not as naturally gifted as his main rivals such as Crump or Gollob, count against him? Mike Lee is generally regarded as the most naturaly gifted rider of all time, but based on achievements I can't find a place for him in the top dozen riders of all time. He had a good world final record - one title and two rostrum finishes - and under a GP system would likely have had a similar record (i'd say 1st in 79, 2nd in 80, 3rd in 83). But in pretty much every other way, i think his record is inferior to the likes of collins and penhall - never won a pairs title, never scored a WTC final maximum, never won the BLRC (netierh did Bruce), never averaged over 11 in the BL, never had a season such as Bruce's 81 season where he was head and shoulders above every rider in the world. So,. I'm happy to stand by my list, but on adifferent day as mentioned already, craven and Gundersen might edege into my top 10. Agree. Had he won say two of the three title run offs he as involved in, i think he would be regarded as the all time greatest rider. As it is, choker would be too harsh, but with the pressure on - in world individual finals only - he did seem to sometimes come up lacking, whereas others such as Mauger always seemed to raise there game on world final night. his head to head world final record with his greatest rival Eric is somethiong like 3-8 against, its stats like that which i think argue against Hans being the greatest of all time. great riders they may have been, but the fact is though that none of those riders on the world title, which is ultimately the key barometer of success. Nivki Pedersen always seems to be underrated in this type of discussion, so intersting to see him finish so high. Surprised to see him ahead of J Crump - 10 seasons in a row on the podicum! - though, so interested as to how you did these calcs? ermolenko finished last in his last race when he on the title, so i presume you're talking about a different ride? the clash with Nielsen, where I would agree he got lucky?

True, but I can't think of any world final - including those where sckaziel and muller won - which were not conventional speedway tracks. Costa mesa is something else. Of course there is the matter of qualification - early 70s bast would likely have been seeded direct to the final, but late 70s would have been competing with autrey and penhall for the spot, so no guarantee he would have qualified. If he had though, he would have had a genuine title chance imho.

Penhall, hancock, ermolenko, milne x 2, laveraux, moran x 2, hamill, autrey, sigalos, schwartz, king. All americans I would rank higher.

How would it have worked in the 70s? What club sides would have competed with the top british side?

Cant see how clubs could afford it as presumably riders would require some sort of retainer to cover them setting up a set of equipment, workshop etc. For their uk racing.

Fwiw, if it was a list of greatest American riders 12-14th would probably be about right. That wasnt the claim though, was it gustix?

Ah ok, so a pretty small number of meetings. And averaging almost 2 points per meeting less if u exclude bonus points (27th in list). Still impressive, but hardly a candidate for rider of the year imho.

Fair enough, thanks, i was clearly wrong. How many meetings was that from?

Do u have his stats to back this up? I dont have them to hand but would be very surprised if his 2013 average was nearly 9. Happy to be proved wrong.

Given tbe recen t thread on greatest riders, and that I understa d speedyguy is now back posting under a different name, I wonder if we are going to get an answer on how this claim can be justified?

Others were able to make this point by making a reasoned argument, as has been done for smolinski and hancock for exsmple.That seems to me a better approach than quoting an irrelevant ststistic. Bruce penhall averaged over 10 in his last season racing in the uk, but that does nt mean he was the best rider in the elite league in 2013. Fwiw, if I was making a shortlist it woulf comprise tai and nki, the top two in the averages and probsbly the best in absolute terms, smolinski as the most improved rider and thetefore most valuable to his team in terms of points "added" - arguably the most important stat in speedway given the points limit rules - and ward as the best rider in the championship winning team. Tai would be my choice, though no complaints with choice of smolinski.

Like that team, would consider swapping woffy and mich for zagar and worrall.Think the optimum team has strong top two plus Lambert. Then either third heat leader and low average second string with potentisl, or two good second strings with potential yo be third heat leader stsndsrd. An all brit team was unfortunately 0.02 over otherwise Woffy, cook, harris, worrall, lambert looked decent.

Like the idea. But I'd add bjerre (gp rider committed to the el) and schlein (2013 elrc champ), ahead of pedersen and hancock. Lindgren and holder deserving guests as have given good service to el, and obviously boost the standard of the field.

Why on earth alternate? The pairs could be run on one weekend - or have two semis on the friday and a final on the saturday if they are eorried about upsetting the polish leagues. I can't see why u would drop the seemingly successful swc every srcond year.

They should run one then. Or let someone else run one for a small fee. Would be great to see the world pairs back on the calendar, and england/gb would even have a chance at a medal ( 5th favourites for the title?)

Trolling or just thick?

Nki Hans Andersen Morris Ljung Lambert

Nki Piotr pawlicki Magic Morris Lambert Or Nki Bjerre Doyle Milik Lambert

Any of these riders a shot at nz wildcard? Or will that go to bunyan again? Or winner of nz champ likely to get it?

Some discussions - primarily those about the future - will be basier around subjective opinions, ideally based on some logical and defendible argument. However one would expect a discussion about past events to be centred on opinions that can be 90 % defended based on facts. So a discussion on best rider in 2013 id expect to be focused on fact based arguments. Who will be the biggest best in 2014 I would expect to b based on subjective arguments and opinions, with potentially some reference to past performance as a basis for expectations around future performance.

One. And darcy was better than tai at that meeting. But hampel won it, even though darcy was arguably the best rider on the night. So ive changed my mind, and my vote for best rider goes to Jason bunyan.

Hyde rd, the shay, odsal and wembley.