waiheke1

Kenny bjerre (the original stalkee) and batch are still here. Dakota north been scared off?

I think it is unlikely that they would keep the second strings from racing the heat leaders. The format you suggest would hugely skew 2nd string averages - riders like ljung or worrall could average more than tai or ward under that format.

Carter penhall sudden sam the morans lee pc and mort andy smith jan o declan eccles - the great entrrtainers of the 80s. Today id say darcy and emil . Also tai and gollob (still)

I think it is unlikely that they would keep the second strings from racing the heat leaders. The format you suggest would hugely skew 2nd string averages - riders like ljung or worrall could average more than tai or ward under that format.

Sid - any readon u went 69-80 instead of 70-79. If it was jyst the 70s id replace jessup with plech. Colin - davis?!? Wouldnt be in my top 10 brits of the era let alone top 10 overall?

In order; Mauger Olsen Pc Michanek Lee Jessup Simmons Louis Autrey Crump

Tbf, bunyan is more competitive than the likes of starostin and ondrasik were in world finals in the 80s. Granted he's unlikely to score more than a point, but he's not been too far off the pace in either of the last two gps.

I posted this on a different thread, but perhaps it is most relavent here waihekeaces1, on 30 Jan 2014 - 2:20 PM, said: If the format is as expected (i.e. reservces entirely protected from heat leaders) then I would expect roughly the following for the “average” rider in each position, expecting a variance of +/- 2 points depending on individual. I’ve given an expected average for each position, and in brackets approximate “starting” average. Number 1: 6 out of 8 points against heat leaders, 4 out of 4 against second strings, two points from heat 15. Expected Average 9.6 (starting 8.30) Number 2: 4 out of 4 points against heat leaders, 3 out of 4 against second strings, one point from heat 15: Average 6.4 (starting 7.3) Number 3: 2 out of 4 points against heat leaders, 3 out of 4 against second strings: Average 5.0 (6.4) Second strings: 0.75 points out of 4 against heat leaders, 2 out of 4 against second strings, 3.5 out of 4 against reserves: Average 6.25 (4.75) Reserves: 0.5 out of 4 against second strings, 4 out of eight against reserves: Average 4.25 (2?) High level assumptions, but not too far off the mark I wouldn’t think? Essentially a three point swing in difficulty between being a third heat leader and second string (i.e. expect thrid heat leader to drop 1.5 from their old average, and second strings to gain the same). This will be most marked for riders coming in on an “assessed” average, as the impact will be immediate rather than gradual under rolling averages. As others have stated, come end of the season there will be an issue with averages not being "like for like". But if you start adjusting for second strings having easier heats, how do you deal with riders ho spent half the season as a second string and half as a heatleader. If you start adjusting for that, do you also need to adjust for riders racing in the tougher heat 15? How will reserves averages be converted for next year, and will the draft reserve system be in place again - and if so, would a rider like Garritty who may average 8 this year become inelgible, and if so what is the cut off for this? The more I look at this, the more I think KL, and to a lesser extent BV and Poole, have got the right set up for the team, with three genuine heat leaders, and two compettive but low averages second strings (orrall the exception). I also think its imperative that any rebuilding during the season be based on 2013 closing greensheets, otherwise it could become farcical.

I have to disagree. If the format is as expected (i.e. reservces entirely protected from heat leaders) then I would expect roughly the following for the “average” rider in each position, expecting a variance of +/- 2 points depending on individual. I’ve given an expected average for each position, and in brackets approximate “starting” average. Number 1: 6 out of 8 points against heat leaders, 4 out of 4 against second strings, two points from heat 15. Expected Average 9.6 (starting 8.30) Number 2: 4 out of 4 points against heat leaders, 3 out of 4 against second strings, one point from heat 15: Average 6.4 (starting 7.3) Number 3: 2 out of 4 points against heat leaders, 3 out of 4 against second strings: Average 5.0 (6.4) Second strings: 0.75 points out of 4 against heat leaders, 2 out of 4 against second strings, 3.5 out of 4 against reserves: Average 6.25 (4.75) Reserves: 0.5 out of 4 against second strings, 4 out of eight against reserves: Average 4.25 (2?) High level assumptions, but not too far off the mark I wouldn’t think? Essentially a three point swing in difficulty between being a third heat leader and second string (i.e. expect thrid heat leader to drop 1.5 from their old average, and second strings to gain the same). This will be most marked for riders coming in on an “assessed” average, as the impact will be immediate rather than gradual under rolling averages.

Usual sequence of scores as coventry number one?

Wasnt Duggan at his peak during the war years and just after - would explain his exclusion? Good thread gustix.

In a gp system yes. In the old world finals, no.Mauger reckons noone practiced gating as much as he and ole olsen -would seem the results of that were obvious.

Norbold -do you know if there is a website which has the results of those meetings?

In john berrys book he observed that ss used to be quite unafraid to challenge the establishment. However, once mr rising was part ofcthe group which purchased the star and went from being just editor to psrt owner, the star became much less wiling to be out spoken. Would be interested if phil thinks there is any truth to this.

Tbh, if format is as expected, I could see him averaging around 5 as a third heat leader, and around eight if he drops to a second string. He's likely to be spend more time as a heat leader, so could see him averaging around 6 this year. I actually think wolves have a decent team, top six but maybe not top 4. Like most id say kl, poole, bv and coventry look the strongest play off candidates.

The most valuable rider isnt neccesary going to be the rider who adds the most to their average. If the new heat format is as expected, id anticipate third heat leaders to on average drop a point off their average, wheras srcond strings should add a point and a half. Excluding draft riders id tip robert lambert to add the most to his average.

It wont be the same for all teams though. Those with riders on an assessed average (e.g. milik) will see a much more marked spike in averages than those with riders on a rolling average.

For team re declarations, the 2013 final rolling averages should be used. avoids all the issues caused by new heat formats and league strength.

Ffs im not disputing your right to include them on your list, jusr explaining why I and many others would exclude them. I ask if you csn provide some statistical basis to justify their inclusion, and you resort to sarcasm, rather than giving a reasoned response. A shame ss you've obviously watched a bit of dpeedway in your time

Gustix - any chance of an answer?

Its not a rule, but most people would base their lists significantly - though not exclusively - on world final performances. You're welcome to include them on your list, but given that I havent seen them ride and readily available stats dont support their claims. If you csn present stats to present a compelling case however id be genuinely interested to see it.

Whoosh

The issue of course would have been that almost all the top riders raced in Britain as there was only one major league - im not sure that would have made for a better champions league. What are your thoughts on tge world club t20 competition, which faces the same issue with regards to players potentially qualifying for multiple clubs - a proper competition?

Based on stats from your site scb, based on returning riders from 2013, janowski is arou d 20th ( slightly higher/lower depending if u include bp) - so a weak second heat leader or strong third hest leader in a ten team comp.

Were u previously "speedy guy". If so u promised to provide such a list but didnt, but did claim bast would be in your top 20.