waiheke1

From memory andy smith quslified for the following sesson as first reserve, but got a full time slot due to someone withdrawing? How does that tie to your earlier comment about being given placed due to nationality? Smith seemed to scrape in through the challenge yesr after year, which is seemingly thr opposite of the point u were making?

Bollocks.. he would have practiced harder than anyone and mastered the starts under whatever rules.I remember erik gundersen dropped over a point and a half off his average the yesr the tspe touching rule csme in. The following seadon he had adapted and aversged 11.

Of course if the british gp was run by say the bspa, there is no guarantee the profits would go back into the sport either...

Andy campbell - replaced larry ross, my all time favourite rider, as aces number one in 1985 and promptly dropped about two and a half points off his average, finishing the season at reserve. Richard knight - no idea why. Possibly due to him being in the 85 wtc squad indtesd of mort pc or sndy smith. Steve gresham - I think he had a punch up in the pits the first time I saw him. Along with schwartz one of the few americans I didn't like.

Agree 100% that carter is a notch down from the all time great british riders such as peter collins and lee.However I certainly think he ranks in the same category as the likes of Simmons Louis morton etc - great British riders, but not all time greats.

sidney, on 17 Jan 2014 - 10:08 PM, said: When Bruce retired the sport seemed to be in reasonable shape, but once he retired the sport seemed to go into a downward spiral.The sport then lost alot of its superstars all within the same time span which did not help.Alot of people have there view on Bruce, i thought he was awesome for the sport and it was a massive loss when he quit.I often wonder would Hans and Erik have ever of won 7 titles between them with Bruce still about.? Maybe the sport was already being dragged down before he quit, but this is the point i believe the decline really set in. Speedway was in decline arguably ever since the boom post war years, but agree the 80s saw a decline from the 70s. A range of factors – the main one increased leisure alternatves (especially TV?), and Speedway’s failure to adapt to meet competition for the leisure dollar and changing consumer expectations. The 80s was obviously tough economically, and also saw the premature losses to the sport of star attractions such as Lee, Carter, Penhall, Sanders, Sigalos. England lost their two world title hopes, as well as PC who was never a contender again after his 1980 injury. The loss of major London venues in Wembley and white city, and then iconic tracks such as Hyde Rd and the Shay didn’t help either, neither surely did the match fixing scandal. Having consecutive world champs in penhall and muller not riding in the uk, at the same time, you’d have thought having a hollywood “star” and then a “popstar” as world champs should have made the sport quite marketable? In term of british speeday decline, the fall of commujism, and revival of the sport in Poland is obviously a turning point. A polish league with lower overheads, bigger crowds meant able to offer riders more money, and british speedway again slo to react. Speedway just seems to have consistently missed the boat when opportunities have arisen. The failure to purchase stadiums in the boom years when land was still cheap, the failure to captialise on the launch of Sky (Speedway should have been ideal for this – meetings fitting an hour and a half slot, with high action,, and also able to be condensed easily into 30 or 60 minutes highlights packages), failure to launch pay per view internet streaming services etc. The White Knight, on 18 Jan 2014 - 06:54 AM, said: The Grand Prix Series did NOTHING at all to help British Speedway. The 'one off' World Final (at Wembley) did at least put some money in to Speedway's coffers. I do believe though that Speedway's decline had started long before the Grand Prix Series. The Grand Prix Series has, to my mind, hastened that decline. GP series may not help British speedway, but i don’t think it hinders it. I think the GP series shows ho speedway can be presented in a modern manner – perhaps the standard league speeday should aspire too? cityrebel, on 19 Jan 2014 - 03:01 AM, said: Penhall's antics at the white city tarnished his reputation in a lot of peoples eyes. sidney, on 19 Jan 2014 - 07:36 AM, said: I was there i liked all of the Americans so i never took alot of notice but it was a disgraceful act you would not believe that a PC or Lee would let anybody through. Lots of riders did it, just perhaps not as blatantly. Gundersen and Olsen did something similar in the 82 inter-contitental final to help Bo Petersen, Ermolenko let Hanock through in an early 90s overseas final, , but no one seems to consider them tarnished. PC of course team rode with Les to keep Shaun out in the run off in that 82 meeting – motrally any better than what Penhall did? ColinMills, on 19 Jan 2014 - 3:00 PM, said: i also think the play off system stops fans travelling,,if your laying comfy in the top 3, away losses are no big deal as you only need a top 4 finish whereas under the old system, a couple of months into the season only about three teams would have any chance of taking the title, for the rest of the teams meetings were essentially meaningless. It’s a fact that there are far more meaningful meetings under the play off system than the old system. sidney, on 22 Jan 2014 - 10:02 AM, said: Carter was so unlucky and who knows thing's could of turned out so differently for him. It was 50/50 but Penhall was very lucky he got the call no doubt about that, that incident was on a par with the Nielsen/Knudsen incident in 86. Penhall was lucky that night, but not in terms of that decision which i think was pretyt clear cut as the correct decision. He was lucky that Carter fell off, as otherwise he would have faced a run off against either Les Collins or Carter for the title. Also lucky that Les dropped points in his easiest ride. Nielsen/Knudsen in 86 I agree as very much a 50/50 call, but hard to begrudge Nielsen, especially when he got arguably the rough end of the deal ion a similar clash with ermolenko in 93.

gustix, on 21 Jan 2014 - 10:32 PM, said: At best, for a fast-changing sport like speedway in my opinion the nearest we can get is to have 'best eights' for 10 year periods. The value of these is that some riders will make the crossover between eras and this surely is of more value than an 'all time top eight riders' table. Something like this? Posted 18 months ago, so the 2010 list would change a bit now – but pleased that I got Tai in there! waihekeaces1, on 13 Jun 2012 - 11:39 PM, said: Ok, here's my first crack at top 10 riders by decade, starting at the 60s (I don't know enough about the 50s and prior ) and including a guess at the 2010s. 60s Fundin Briggs Mauger Knuttson Craven Plechanov Moore Woryna Wyglenda GNorden 70s Mauger Olsen Collins Michanek Lee Simmons Louis Autrey PlechP Crump 80s Nielsen Penhall Gundersen Lee Carter S Moran Pedersen Morton Sigalos Knudsen 90s Rikkardson Nielsen Ermolenko Jonsson Hamil Hancock Pedersen Havelock Gollob Knudsen 2000s Crump Rickardson Pedersen Gollob Adams Loram Hancock Sullivan Hampel 2010s Ward Emil Holder Hancock Gollob Hampel N Pedersen Crump Dudek Tai Woffinden (here's hoping!) AD1974, on 22 Jan 2014 - 12:19 AM, said: It is impossible to include league performance or results from other qualifiers and internationals but in the Gundersen/Nielsen debate they surely suggest that Nielsen was a better rider don't they?! I disagree – I’m actually working on a sytsem to do exactly that - a ranking based on performances in the world final, qualifiers, internationals, league and BLRC. So far, I’ve just done 1981-1985, and the weightings need some tinkering, but it gives some interesting results. Purely for that period, you get a top five of: Based on single season peak 1 Penhall(81) 2, Nielsen (85) 3. Carter (82) 4. Gundersen (83) 5. Lee (83) Based on average of best three seasons 1 Penhall (two seasons only) 2 Nielsen 3 gundersen 4 Carter 5 S Moran Based on cumulative scores over that period 1 Nielsen 2Gundersen 3 Carter 4 S Moran 5 Knudsen I hope to do the same for all seasons (I did a similar thing for 2013), but is dependent on having free time to do so. sidney, on 22 Jan 2014 - 10:38 AM, said: Forget the pairs team events, Lee had a better world final record than Collins, he had six finals he was on the rostrum x2 a winner once and a fourth place.Collins had eight appearances a winner once ( very unlucky in 77) but Lee was unlucky in 83 i believe he was the best rider in the world that year on stats Lee is the better in my book.Certainly on the WF record also i know Lee was finished after 83 but he was up there easily with Nielsen,Erik,Sigalos, Penhall a new generation Peter was finished really by 80/81as a possible winner. But why forget those events – just because PC had a better record? Lee’s record in world finals was marginally better than PC granted (better average, i’d say a gold and two bronze is fractionally better than a gold and two silver, though PC deserves credit for making more finals), but in every other respect PC’s record was better. 83 stats would suggest Lee was the third best in the world, behind Hans and Eric, though at his peak that season he was unstoppable (THAT demolition of Carter!). He only made the rostrum in the final due to Hans puncture though. The argument that can be made in faour of Lee is not what he did achieve (PC’s achievement IMHO dwarf Lees) but what he could have achieved. when he rode that last final at Norden, he was roughly the same age as PC, Erik and Tai when they won their first titles, and younger than Penhall and Hans. gustix, on 27 Jan 2014 - 08:19 AM, said: I thought you would have heard of the leading website - The Speedway Researcher? Yes I am acquainted with that excellent site– however those war time meetings weren’t listed in the “special” section along with the 46-48 British Riders Champs or the World Champs, hence my query. Thanks to you and Norbold for your responses, I’ve now located them, and will peruse when I have time. sidney, on 29 Jan 2014 - 09:49 AM, said: An impressive list Andy, am chuffed Lee is in front of Collins and Penhall agree with all of them except Pedersen he would not get in my 16. I think Nicki has to be regarded as one of the top 16 of all time. You can’t fluke three world titles under the GP system that he has ridden under, in at least one of those seasons he was indisputably the best rider across all competitions. Nicki seems to be the most under rated multi world champ of all time. That said, he doesn’t make my own top dozen.

Can you name a year under the old world final system in which the host nation wasn't given at least one slot in the final? Or name one final in the 80s which didnt contain a number of sub standard finalists who qualified through virtue of their nstionality? Who would you say was better, starostin ondrssik, adjoran and kroeze or harris louis nicholls and lindgren?

Jason bunyan has the record for nz titles, but I have some doubts as to whether he is the best kiwi of all time

true, but it was also well below the standard of the 70s and 80s. i'd imagine he will be regarded alongside the likes of Doncaster, Harris and Nicholls, rather than your Morts, Louis or Simmons, let alone the PCs, Lee etc.

You observed that he is not included in peoples lists of top 12 brits. I explsined why.

Dlete duplicate Who topped englands test averages in 82, scoring 27 points more than any other englishman v usa (and more than penhall or sigalos) and topping the scoring v denmsrk despite missing one of the three meetings? Who scored a maximum in the wtc as england got eliminated? Who finished on the podium of every world final quslifying round? Who topped the bl averages that season with over 11, a mark neither lee mort s moran sigalos or sanders ever achieved? Who won the blrc with a maximum in 82, again a feat none of those u name acieved? Ill give u a clue - its a rider who in six league and cup clashes that season was not beaten once by pc.I respect your opinion sid, but to suggest that carter was not the best brit by a mile in 1982 is ludicrous.

Along with mort my favourite british rider of all time. But not close to the top dozen britss of all time or even the modern era.

Along with mort my favourite british rider of all time. But not close to the top dozen britss of all time or even the modern era.

Exactly. LA in 82 would be my guess.

Which of say the last ten world finals do u reckon had a bigger attendsnce than cardiff 2013?

Really? What do u reckon was the attendance at those meetings in yhe the late 80s and early 90s.I dont dispute the quality, used to love those meetings.

I think this is possibly the optimum format, if reserves are to be totally segregated from heat leaders. Every rider meets each opposition rider (excepting HL vs Res) at least once, and no rider has consecutive rides, nor does any rider meet the same opposition rider in each heat. Downside is it pretty much gets rid of the concept of riding in “pairs” . I tried to get the second string vs reserve heats out of the way early in the meeting, to reduce the chance of these being used as easy “double point” heats, assuming that that ruke remain in effect. Perhaps it could be restricted to after heat 7, but usable in any heat after that (including heat 15?). Home Away ht1 2 6 4 7 ht2 4 7 2 6 ht3 1 5 3 4 ht4 3 4 1 5 ht5 2 7 2 7 ht6 1 3 1 3 ht7 4 6 4 6 ht8 2 5 3 5 ht9 6 7 6 7 ht10 3 5 2 5 ht11 6 7 6 7 ht12 1 5 1 5 ht13 3 4 3 4 ht14 1 2 1 2 Under this format, I’d expect your average number 1 to average around 8.8, other heat leaders and second strings around 6 points, reserves around 4.25. Obviously with a variance of around +/2 points in each position. Now given that the average heat leader (exc number ones) starts on around 6.9 and the average second string an average of 4.75, that indicates a difference of difficulty of over 2 points between the rides a second string has and those a heatleader has. Some teams this will “even out” as riders will shuffle between HL and 2nd string slots, but at KL it’s quite possible there will be no such movement, so Lambert and Porsing could end with quite inflated averages. Edited: I can't seem to copy and paste the format into nice columns from the excel file, and have deleted the example with rider names as cannot seem to get that to show in tidy columns either.

I agree lee was the best brit in 83, ahead of Carter and morton. In 82 though, carters best season, who do u think was close to him? In 81 he was top brit in bl averages, world final and blrc champ.

Phil - what do fim do with the money bsi psy them?

Nt everything from the gp series goes to bsi though. There is the monry they pay to fim - surely what happens to that money is the more pertinent question

Carter was indisputably the best british rider in 82 and 85 and possibly 81. You omitted his two british titles, one on a broken leg.engine failure at wembley, the fall in la - id say he only undrlerachieved in norden to be fair, though he was still only a point behind lee.

Going for the same era (mid 70s onwards with an exception for craven?) I'd go for a similar list but swap out wyer tstum and davis for tai simmons and the mighty mort. Cant argue with the first 12, snd understand your reason for omitting tai (and presume similat logic governd omisiion of havelock). Carter is the interesting omission for me, I certainly would rank him ahead of the likes of ashby and boocock who with all due respect were never close to being the best rider in the world.

I was just about to post a similar thing. I didnt watch a lot of t Rick, but from memory in both the 91 and 94 finals he needed to do a lot from the back. Was he, like olsen, a rider who's gating improved a lot over his career, to the extent that he becsme a lot less exciting to wstch as an increasing numbet of his victories came from the tspes?

A point that has already been raised multiple times on the thread. One way to stop this would be to use the official 2013 greensheets for any team redeclarations.