waiheke1

Phil - what do fim do with the money bsi psy them?

Nt everything from the gp series goes to bsi though. There is the monry they pay to fim - surely what happens to that money is the more pertinent question

Carter was indisputably the best british rider in 82 and 85 and possibly 81. You omitted his two british titles, one on a broken leg.engine failure at wembley, the fall in la - id say he only undrlerachieved in norden to be fair, though he was still only a point behind lee.

Going for the same era (mid 70s onwards with an exception for craven?) I'd go for a similar list but swap out wyer tstum and davis for tai simmons and the mighty mort. Cant argue with the first 12, snd understand your reason for omitting tai (and presume similat logic governd omisiion of havelock). Carter is the interesting omission for me, I certainly would rank him ahead of the likes of ashby and boocock who with all due respect were never close to being the best rider in the world.

I was just about to post a similar thing. I didnt watch a lot of t Rick, but from memory in both the 91 and 94 finals he needed to do a lot from the back. Was he, like olsen, a rider who's gating improved a lot over his career, to the extent that he becsme a lot less exciting to wstch as an increasing numbet of his victories came from the tspes?

Carter penhall sudden sam the morans lee pc and mort andy smith jan o declan eccles - the great entrrtainers of the 80s. Today id say darcy and emil . Also tai and gollob (still)

Sid - any readon u went 69-80 instead of 70-79. If it was jyst the 70s id replace jessup with plech. Colin - davis?!? Wouldnt be in my top 10 brits of the era let alone top 10 overall?

In order; Mauger Olsen Pc Michanek Lee Jessup Simmons Louis Autrey Crump

Tbf, bunyan is more competitive than the likes of starostin and ondrasik were in world finals in the 80s. Granted he's unlikely to score more than a point, but he's not been too far off the pace in either of the last two gps.

Usual sequence of scores as coventry number one?

Wasnt Duggan at his peak during the war years and just after - would explain his exclusion? Good thread gustix.

In a gp system yes. In the old world finals, no.Mauger reckons noone practiced gating as much as he and ole olsen -would seem the results of that were obvious.

Norbold -do you know if there is a website which has the results of those meetings?

In john berrys book he observed that ss used to be quite unafraid to challenge the establishment. However, once mr rising was part ofcthe group which purchased the star and went from being just editor to psrt owner, the star became much less wiling to be out spoken. Would be interested if phil thinks there is any truth to this.

Ffs im not disputing your right to include them on your list, jusr explaining why I and many others would exclude them. I ask if you csn provide some statistical basis to justify their inclusion, and you resort to sarcasm, rather than giving a reasoned response. A shame ss you've obviously watched a bit of dpeedway in your time

Gustix - any chance of an answer?

Its not a rule, but most people would base their lists significantly - though not exclusively - on world final performances. You're welcome to include them on your list, but given that I havent seen them ride and readily available stats dont support their claims. If you csn present stats to present a compelling case however id be genuinely interested to see it.

Whoosh

The issue of course would have been that almost all the top riders raced in Britain as there was only one major league - im not sure that would have made for a better champions league. What are your thoughts on tge world club t20 competition, which faces the same issue with regards to players potentially qualifying for multiple clubs - a proper competition?

Were u previously "speedy guy". If so u promised to provide such a list but didnt, but did claim bast would be in your top 20.

For most, yes. Just as with football, most would selet their greats from 1930 onwards.

To be prdantic, jessup was the bookies favourite in 80, penhall was second favourite

I guess its relative - there are certainly arguments for it being less fair than the gp system, but lets not open that argument again!

i think i can justify their inclusion Sidney. Collins on just the one title, but as desperately unlucky not to win a second in 77, a performance that still ranks as arguably the greatest world final display of all time. Under a GP system he would have likely won two world titles. He won orld Pairs titles wityh FIVE different partners, achieved an unprecedented three consecutive WTC maximums, won every other major title (British Final, BLRC, Inter-continental etc.), topped the british averages, averaged over 11 on at leeast one occasion - and this despite the fact that he was never the same rider afetr the iinjury he sustained in 1980 at the age of 26. That's all without mentioning that he was arguably the greatest team rider of all time, and without going into the sheer breathtaking manner of some of his victories. Penhall was only 25 when he retired, having won back to back world titles, so who knows how many more he could have won. Under a GP system he would likely have won the same two titles, and possibly added a medal in 1980. Won most other major titles (orld PAirs, WTC, Inter continental, AMerican), and in 1981 as riding as well as any rider in history - hard to think of another season in which a rider was so dominant. The main rivals for those last to spots: Craven, who won two world titles, was one of the "big five", and could have won more but for his tragic death at a young age. Debate on another thread suggests however that he may never have won a title under a GP system, and not having seen footage of him racing I guess I may have some bias against him as I have no vidual evidence to show me ho good he really was. Gundersen won three world titles, and potentially could have won more but for his career ending injuries. Won multiple PAirs, WTC and BLRC titles, and pretty much every other major event. The onyl argument against him really is that even at his peak, he was arguably second best rider in the world to Hans , and under a GP system he may have been less successful. Nicki Pedersen seems to be the most under rated multipe world champion of alll time, especialyl given that all his three titles have been under a GP system so there can be no arguing about them being lucky. Perhaps his "dirty Nicki" person, and the fact that he is arguably not as naturally gifted as his main rivals such as Crump or Gollob, count against him? Mike Lee is generally regarded as the most naturaly gifted rider of all time, but based on achievements I can't find a place for him in the top dozen riders of all time. He had a good world final record - one title and two rostrum finishes - and under a GP system would likely have had a similar record (i'd say 1st in 79, 2nd in 80, 3rd in 83). But in pretty much every other way, i think his record is inferior to the likes of collins and penhall - never won a pairs title, never scored a WTC final maximum, never won the BLRC (netierh did Bruce), never averaged over 11 in the BL, never had a season such as Bruce's 81 season where he was head and shoulders above every rider in the world. So,. I'm happy to stand by my list, but on adifferent day as mentioned already, craven and Gundersen might edege into my top 10. Agree. Had he won say two of the three title run offs he as involved in, i think he would be regarded as the all time greatest rider. As it is, choker would be too harsh, but with the pressure on - in world individual finals only - he did seem to sometimes come up lacking, whereas others such as Mauger always seemed to raise there game on world final night. his head to head world final record with his greatest rival Eric is somethiong like 3-8 against, its stats like that which i think argue against Hans being the greatest of all time. great riders they may have been, but the fact is though that none of those riders on the world title, which is ultimately the key barometer of success. Nivki Pedersen always seems to be underrated in this type of discussion, so intersting to see him finish so high. Surprised to see him ahead of J Crump - 10 seasons in a row on the podicum! - though, so interested as to how you did these calcs? ermolenko finished last in his last race when he on the title, so i presume you're talking about a different ride? the clash with Nielsen, where I would agree he got lucky?

True, but I can't think of any world final - including those where sckaziel and muller won - which were not conventional speedway tracks. Costa mesa is something else. Of course there is the matter of qualification - early 70s bast would likely have been seeded direct to the final, but late 70s would have been competing with autrey and penhall for the spot, so no guarantee he would have qualified. If he had though, he would have had a genuine title chance imho.