waiheke1

Tbf, in 78 davey's average was around the tenth best, so he would have been a number one at most teams that year. Most other seasons though he would have been a second or third heatleader regardless of team. I note also that he never made the podium of the golden sovereign meeting at ipswich, wheras sanders/louis were most years. Davey was good, but not of the very highest standard.

and back to the original topic. Has anyone viewed all of the Mort DVD,the Shooey DVD and this one, and if so, which would you recommend as the pick of the bunch? The former are amongst my favourite riders of all time, wheras KC was certainly not a favourite, but without a doubt "box office."

I can't think of a single sport which isn't more professional now than in the 70s (in terms of the sportspeople, not the administration!). I'd include speedway in that. The result (in my view) is that the general standard in all sports has risen. In speedway, this would specifically relate to the equipment and fitness of riders which I think are indisputable, and overall ability which is certainly subject to more debate. Certainly when you get to GP level, riders preparation levels are far superior to in the past - most would have say three bikes specifically for GPS, wheras in the past riders outside the very top echelon would maybe have jut one "special" bike. Overall, I'd say it's harder to make an instant impact than in the past. the issue with a similar approach for speedway would be that for riders to really compete at the GP level, they need time to prepare and arrange sponsors, plan their schedules etc. If you had the qualifiers for the "other places" at the start of the new season rather than in the previous season, these riders would come in at a serious disadvantage. To go back to Henry W's query, is there any sport where all qualification happens in the same year as the World final (i.e. no seeding based on prior year perfromances)?

we've had this debate before. Firstly, I'm not sure Mike Lee is good as an example, because simply he was, in the nicest possible way, a freak - probably the most naturally gifted rider of all time - and as such not representative of a general situation. BUT... if Robert Lambert as a 16 year old this year had averaged 9 in the Elite league as Lee did in 1976 in the British League, he would 100% without a doubt have been included in the 2015 GP series. Similarly,had the GP series been in effect in the 70s, Lee would have had a very good shot of ghaving been included in the 77 series, - if not it would have been a season later in 78. There's an argument of course that it would have been better for Lee if success had not come so early. Note also that Emil finished on the podium of the GP series as a 19 year old, the same age as Lee when he made his first rostrum appearance, and younger than the likes of Peter Collins. And of course, we've seen teenagers such as Zmaralik win one off GPs. So frankly, I don't think your argument stacks up.

Harris has finished 5th in the world, won a GP, and regularly qualified for the GP series. Davey never made a world final, and didn't win any equivalent major meeting. Harris has shone on a number of occasions for England/GP in major events, Davey rarely ade England appearances (admittedly in a very tough era to make an England team). Harris tbf has never really dominated at a domestic level, but neither did Davey ever achieve the 10 point average that at that time was the mark of a true world class rider (and only once averaged ovr 9, which was generally the standard for a true international class rider). For me, Davey's record just doesn't compare with Harris's. I don't think anyone would dispute that Louis was far superior to Cook, if this is a reference to the earlier comparisions between the two you've missed the point being made. Louis is also > Harris by some margin IMHO. Music charts are about commercial appeal and taste of the mass market. No comparison to speedway where we are looking at results. Davey would have only ridden against Louis/Sanders once or at post twice a meeting, so rarely would he have had to battle them" for points, espeicially given that bonus points were included in averages. Riding in a strong team was generally beneficial for your average not a hindrance. I agree that Onedirection are rubbish though. It is disputable though. In fact this was dealt with in quite a bit of detail earlier in the thread. Again, we are talking about speedway as a whole, not just the EL.

World cup should be for the strongest possible side. But bspa should be putting an engla d team into the pairs, and ideally organising test series. Surely a series against aussie or sweden could pay for itself? That would be the opportunity to give youngsters a chance.

Nz was up on 2013, though well down on 2012 still. 9000-10000 seems to be the consensus.

Have to agree with those picks, though if darcy wasn't banned he might edge emil as best racer.

fixed gates was definitely introduced after 87.Pretty s ure it was 88, and imo had a much smaller impact on averages than the introduction of nominated heat 15.

Chris harris is a very good rider. Better than davey imo. But he is a 5-6 point rider in poland. If you had only ever seen him ride in the polish league, would u really appreciate what a good rider he is? The riders you nsmed were very good riders. But the reason we think that is they won races. If they had won less races, we wouldnt rate them so highly.

Sid - you are still missing the point re number ones. You said those riders would be number one in any era. But if they were all riding today in an eight team league, some would only be third heat leaders. Louis is better thsn cook - cook is a third hl in a league missing hslf tge worlds to riders. But his average would be similar to cooks. re the foreign riders, you are right. Penhall averaged 9, Nielsen and gundersen in the 7s, but pretty much anyone else you can nsme (add knudsen, jan o, correy to your list) were in the 6s. but foreigners coming in now are not comparable, as they have generally ridden a number of seasons in equal or higher leagues abroad. Pawlicki for example is world u21 champ. By the time knudsen/moran were euro u21 champs they were 8 point riders - same as pawlicki if you include bp.

from memory that was intoduced the same season (88?) as the nominated heat 15?

I missed the 70s, so only saw Olsen when he wa spast his peak - though still ecall him nailing a couple of unstoppable maximums. Didn'y see Briggs ride Hyde Rd, but given he won 6 straight BLRC there, perhaps he qualifies as the greatest ever around the circuit? In terms of the 80s, the best two riders around Hyde Rd for me were Morton and Carter. Carter had two BLRC (and could have been three but for the flag incident in 80), to Mort's one. Carter I imagine must have averaged close to 11, Mort I imagine over the same period may have been closer to 10.5. Conversely, Mort was track record holder, and beat Carter 2-0 in the only golden helmet match race I saw between them. The closest I ever saw Carter to having a bad meeting at Hyde Rd was his final appearance there ina test vs Denmark, scored 8 from his first three rides, but then fell in his next two (both broken footrests I seem to recall). For me without a doubt the best visting rider of my era. Behind those two I would have Gundersen and Nielsen. Gindersen was a true Hyde Rd specialist, along with Carter the rider I most feared. Nielsen was nigh on unbeatable around Hyde Rd in the latter years of it's existence, I suspect largely because he was pretty much unbeatable on any track at that point! Behind those two, I'd have S Moran and Penhall. Shooey was another Belle Vue specialist, though I don't recall him ever winning a major meeting there, or scoring a maximum - but conversely, don't recall him ever scoring less than double figures on BLRC night, and he always looked class. Penhall wasn't so much a specialist, just a true class rider who could ride rpretty much any track well. After those two I'd have two home track riders, Larry Ross and Peter Collins, who behind Mort were clearly the next best Aces riders of my era( to clarify, 81-87, so I missed PC's peak years). Both consistently excellent around Hyde Rd in the BL, and both with remarkable BLRC records (don't believe either ever cored less than double digits there) - though Larry's BLRC appearances actually all occurred before my ime, and in Dons' colours.

I would have thought so. Surprised that Ove Fundin didn't get in the top 150 Swedes, there are some pretty mediocre footballers on that list. A similar poll in NZ I would imagine would see both Barry Briiggs and Ivan Maugermake the list, Ronnie Moore is probably also deserving but doesn't have the same profile, I'd be surprised if too many of the NZ public knew about his achievements.

When you've committed a serious crime, there is no guarantee you can simply resume your previous profession. Teachers, lawyers etc. would be precluded should they get a rape conviction. in this case, he has a public role, and hence the public hsve the right (freedom of speech) to express their thoughts. It is then down to employers to choose whether public backlash outweighs what ched brings to their business. I dont think anyone objects to ched having a job, but people do object to it being a high profile one.

Gb/england was much stronger in the 70s - thats ubdisputed the bl was stronger thsn the current el - it had more of the worlds top riders for sure, albeit spread over twice the number of teams, but overall I'd agree with this statement, with the rider that its relative to world standards however, the original statement from sid was that there were more top class riders in the 70s/80s than there sre today. That I've yet to see any genuine argument presented for, and irs definitely not a view I agree with.

Holder and hancock @ 10/1 seem best value bets for mine. nki and nicki @ 8/1seem decent value, hampel @ 12/1 likewise. kk and tai favourites, 5/1 seems about right, but doesn't seem to offer as much value as the other candidates.

if your son met a female athlete at a club and went back to her hotel for sex, would you say this showed he had no self respect? Would you give him "both barrels"?

Not what he said. He said the 70s BL, not the 70s. That's a significant difference.

Id imagine todays second strings are more competitive. Ther are all professionals, and as such have comparatively better equipment than their latter day equivalents. Secondly, the move to designated gates mean the top riders can't dominate the favoured gates as in the past.

Sid - in the past, did the top riders lose more often or less often to second strings than they do today? Because on one hand you are saying the top riders then were better than top riders today, but on the other you are saying they were beaten by second strings more often?

The bl was indisputably stronger than the current el, i think we all agree on that sid. However, that doesnt mean that the sport in genersl was stronger.

i don't think it's an unfashionable view at all, albeit a position that's easy to take with the benefit of hindsight. Nielsen and Gundersen would both be regarded amongst the top dozen riders of all time, Carter top 50 maybe. However, in 81 and 82 Carter (similar age to the two Danes) was clearly someway ahead of them. In 83 Carter had a poor season, and was arguably overtaken by them. In 84 his season was a write off, 85 he would have been a hot favourite for the world title but for injury. So in the seasons they raced at the top level (80-85) they were very close, and at the point of Carter's death note that Hans hadn't won world individual title either (neither had he won a BLRC at that stage). As for a cool head- Nicki Pedersen has three world titles! Apart from 82, I don't recall Carter being involved in too much controversy in major events - he was knocked off by Penhall in 81 overseas final, and fenced Sigalos in the 82 BLRC (IIRMC). Hans however lost three world titles in run offs, crashed in 85 then dropped crictical points in the re-run, got away with knocking Knudsen off in 86, got cost the title by being excluded for knocking Ermolenko off in the 93 world final, seem to recall a controversial clash with Sigalos in the 83 inter-continental final. Fact is, you needed a bit of luck on world final nights - and KC never got it. Sid's point is that the era Hans/Eric dominated was unique in that in a very short space of time the sport lost prematurely 5 of arguably the top 8 world championship contenders (Penhall, Sigalos, Carter, Lee and Sanders). HAd those others been around, it's highly likely that the Danes would have won lsess world titles - if they had ended with one or two a piece say we'd regard them perhaps to the likes of Michanek or Knuttsson (i.e. very good world champs) rather than in the very top ties. Similarly the Danes (best alltime pairing they might be) would have been unlikely to have won the Pairs 6 years straight if competing against Penhall/Sigalos or Lee/Carter. The WTC similarly, amazing as the Gundersen/Nielsen/Pedersen/Knudsen team was - would it have dominated the same against say Penhall/Sigalos/Ermolenko/Moran or Lee/Carter/Morton/Wigg? Conversely, at the other end maybe they both would have won more if Erik hadn't got injured? agree with all of this. I too was there at the Odsal semi. worth noting though that having been on just two points at the interval, he still managed to qualify by winning his last two rides and then a three man run off to secure his place. ok Sid, as you know I've devised a ranking system to assess riders within their own era. In 2013 my 30th best rider in the world was Buczowski and in 2014 Freddie Lindgren by comparision, In 1983 it was a very much passed his best Mauger and in 84 Finn Thomsen. To take a couple of other years, in 82 it was Mitch Shirra, 86 Peter Carr, 89 Paul Thorp. Can you really say that the 30th best rider in the world in the 80s was definitely stronger than their equivalent in the 2010s? I think it's fair to say when you look back things can look stronger than they were, as with riders who were emerging youngsters at the time you are now aware of what they went on to achieve, or riders who were passed their peak you can forget quite where they were in their career in a given season.

agree with the rest of your post, but not this.In 81 penhall was clearly the best rider on the night, followed I would say by jessup. A toss up between carter and gundersen as to who was 3rd best. in 82 I think its hard to call between penhall, kc and les collins as to who was the best rider on the night - argument could go either way. disagree. Carter I think would have won in 85 if not for injury. Lee was still only 23 at his last world final - had he not gone off the rsils he would have been a force for another decade. Sigslos was good enough to be world champ, and of course penhall could (would?) have won more titles. The only one I dont think would have impactrd on the danes dominance was sanders - excellent rider, but to me never really looked likr being a world champ - the only truly dominant display on a major occsion I recsll from him was the 83 pairs finsl - and of course his fsll denied him a richly deserved gold medal. definitely they were included in the averages in 84 - its the reason eric dropped around a point and a half off his average.I actually thought they were still included in averages through at least til 87 - and am pretty sure tape exclusuons counted as a "ride" for the 3 ride minimum - but I don't have any evidence to support this, just my recollection.

I think 82 was the last year he tried went out in ic in 80 & 81, overseas final in 82