waiheke1

Not sure if you are trolling, unable to read or just thick, but I'm out.

I am not ignoring anything. I am sure he is very well known and regarded in the midget car community. To make clear the point I have made repeatedly: THE AVERAGE KIWI IS UNLIKELY TO HAVE HEARD OF BARRY BUTTERWORTH. if you have reason to disagree with that statement please ler me know the basis, mine is having lived here for over 25 years and following sport in general reasonably closely, as do most of my friends., and not recognising that name.

Yes, these days midget cars are what most kiwis think of as speedway, but outside those that actively follow the sport doubt msny kiwis could name a driver. scott dixon, bruce mclaren, greg murphy,burt munro, ivan mauger I would guess would be the five most recognisable motorsport names to your average kiwi. actually add possum bourne,chris amon and denny hulme to that list And steve williams and bill buckley I guess as well

Disagree. If you are one of the top two riders in the world it is probably easier, as one bad ride wont ruin your chances. For snyone else I suspect it is consider harder.

You are still missing the point. The average kiwi is unlikely to know the name. The fact that people that closely follow his sport will know of him is irrelevant to that point.

excluding bp 2014 el averages:Garritty 7.12 Worrall 6.58 Nielsen 4.74 Sarjeant 4.30 Would suggest coventry have marginally the stronger pairing.

Met him at the last speedway gp in nz, and he seemed in excellent health - surprised that he's 80 he could have passed for ten yeard younger. happy birthday to a kiwi sporting legend.

Yes - but as matt pointed out all riders today have a chance too. question twk: would you say champions league football teams QUALIFY for the competition, or are they SELECTED?

Yes. But my point is I am a kiwi interested in sport and I had never heard of him, and I doubt most kiwis have. This was response to your suggestion that more would have heard of him than briggs and mauger - which frankly is nonsense. briggs and mauger still get mentioned when all time great nz sportspeople are discussed, as I say I have never heard barry butterworths name mentioned.

Hang on. Weren't you using jason doyle as an example of how much weaker speedway was these days, when a rider could be number one in both pl and el.how much weaker must it have been in the 50s then for young to do that?!?

I've never heard of barry butterworth (had to google hom), doubt most kiwis have. Suspect most would wonder if brad butterworth was who you were referring to. Mauger and briggs are still names familiar to most kiwis over the age of say 35.

yet the money riders were paid in the old world championship days was no better, and worse in the qualifying rounds.can you give examples of how the world chsmpionship proceeds were put to good use in benefitting speedway as a whole?

Saying that only the finsl round of yhe gp series determines the winner is like saying only the last four heats of a world finsl detetmined the winner - utter nonsense. that said, I'm sure if the uk had a suitable venue available in october then they would get a finsl round every few years - any suggestions parsloes?

Wembley 81 was the last truly great world final. However, it wasn’t 92000 (i think it was around 71000?). and of course by 95 wembley was no longer available. So the issue wasn’t truly there in 81, but it was quite different by 95. How many world finals in between 82-94 exceeded the 45000 Cardiff generates? Odsal never did, and while ODsal was an excellent race track, it hardly compares with the Millenium stadium as a venue. Still a big improvement stadium wise on the likes of Norden which also hosted world finals. As for your other points. Britain would get a world final at best every four year, as opposed to a GP every year. We still have the british final. So we miss the overseas/commonwealth final which was annual, and the inter-continental/European final, which would be held in the UK every 4 years or so. So yes, Britian is missing out on around 0.5 world championship meetings per year BUT of course speedway fans now get to see 12 GP meetings live on TV. As for internationals, while the GP series may have contributed by removing some Friday/Saturday dates, the reality is that these were no longer commecrically viable towards the end, or able to be fitted into riders schedules due to their other domestic leagues – much simpler when all the top riders were Britain based. So really I think the only way the GP has been to the detriment of British speedway is removal of a number of Friday/Saturday dates from the calendar. The main issue (IMHO) has been the establishment of rival leagues in Poland and Sweden, as well as the failure of speedway governing bodies to invest in long term infrastructure (stadiums, training tracks) during the peak years. So, while I agree that no GP is ever likelt to re-create the magic of the 81 Wembley final, overallthe product which has resulted is far superior (in terms of racing, quality of field and finding a worthy winner) system to the old one, which much as I love it, had had it’s day. which of course was Matt K's point. What is the difference between an outside company (BSI) taking profits from the sport, and individual promoters benefitting from a world final payday and then taking the money out of the sport? which world class teenager is being denied a chance of qualifying for the G series. Or what rider ? Reality is, it is probably easier to finish top three through the GP challenge to qualify for the GP series than it was to finish top 11 in the inter-continental final in the old days.

he was my choice above as best all rounder.probably not going to be nominated as best gater as he wasnt renowned as being a start tart, but similatly not going to be nominated as best racer as he did far less work from the back than the likes of emil, ward, gollob, pc x2 etc.

I can never work out whether you are a troll or just the village idiot...

Bwitcher is talking about absolute standards here, not relative standards. Relative to world standards you are correct, but you are missing his point. Just as in relative terms the 70 Brazil footbsll team is the greatest of all time, but would be played off the park by an average 2014 premier league side. id also add that doyle was in the top 15 riders in the world last year. A top 15 rider in the 70s would have ridden only bl, but had they ridden in the national league also would have likrly been number one for both teams.

but noone is using the british final to argue why harris is better thsn davey. The key reasons are that harris has won a gp, finished 5th in the world, and regularly qualified for gp series. None of those are due to britain being weaker now thsn thrn.fwiw, id rank both nicholls and harris below the likes of morton,louis, jessup etc. But ahead of davey who I would rank similarly to the likes of phil collins and thr grahame brothers.

best team rider: would have to be pc or mort, or ideally both togetherbest all rounder: t rick

Bwitcher already acknowledged that ftr reserves may be weaker than their predecessors. fwiw, glanz was rubbish round hyde rd. courtney hunter and willmott spent very little time at reserve as they quickly gained/regained second string status. And courtney was part of the strongest (in depth) aces side of that era. You could have named instead crang ayres whittaker graves and it doesnt look so strong.

If we are going all time then id go with mauger and peter collins respectively. t rick pretty close to top in both categories.

would remove the need for the surface materials to be stored in a climate and moisture controlled facility.in fact, you could stack it in a variety of shapes, not just a cylinder.

Ok but you stated that davey would be 30th in the world today because the standard is lower. That implies you are talking global standard. Everyone agrees that british standards are lower now than in the 70s (comparable to world standards).

Twk - your argument seems to be based on tbe standard of british riders and riders in uk. I would agree it is considerably weaker. But denmark, poland, russia and Australia are all considerably stronger. I disagree that at a global level speedway is weaker gban previously. By my ranking system, freddie lindgren was 30th best rider in the world in 2014. Was davey as good as lindgren? Personally I don't believe so. as an example twk: mjj kenny bjerre hans andersen pawlicki brothers gollob zmarzlick are all riders who are not automatic picks for their nations. You cant tell me they are not international class?

No one is saying he wasnt a good rider. But in that era where would he rank - just inside thr top 50 riders of the decade? In comparison, I suspect harris would be top 30 riders of the first decade of the 2000s