waiheke1

Nz was up on 2013, though well down on 2012 still. 9000-10000 seems to be the consensus.

Have to agree with those picks, though if darcy wasn't banned he might edge emil as best racer.

fixed gates was definitely introduced after 87.Pretty s ure it was 88, and imo had a much smaller impact on averages than the introduction of nominated heat 15.

Chris harris is a very good rider. Better than davey imo. But he is a 5-6 point rider in poland. If you had only ever seen him ride in the polish league, would u really appreciate what a good rider he is? The riders you nsmed were very good riders. But the reason we think that is they won races. If they had won less races, we wouldnt rate them so highly.

Sid - you are still missing the point re number ones. You said those riders would be number one in any era. But if they were all riding today in an eight team league, some would only be third heat leaders. Louis is better thsn cook - cook is a third hl in a league missing hslf tge worlds to riders. But his average would be similar to cooks. re the foreign riders, you are right. Penhall averaged 9, Nielsen and gundersen in the 7s, but pretty much anyone else you can nsme (add knudsen, jan o, correy to your list) were in the 6s. but foreigners coming in now are not comparable, as they have generally ridden a number of seasons in equal or higher leagues abroad. Pawlicki for example is world u21 champ. By the time knudsen/moran were euro u21 champs they were 8 point riders - same as pawlicki if you include bp.

from memory that was intoduced the same season (88?) as the nominated heat 15?

I missed the 70s, so only saw Olsen when he wa spast his peak - though still ecall him nailing a couple of unstoppable maximums. Didn'y see Briggs ride Hyde Rd, but given he won 6 straight BLRC there, perhaps he qualifies as the greatest ever around the circuit? In terms of the 80s, the best two riders around Hyde Rd for me were Morton and Carter. Carter had two BLRC (and could have been three but for the flag incident in 80), to Mort's one. Carter I imagine must have averaged close to 11, Mort I imagine over the same period may have been closer to 10.5. Conversely, Mort was track record holder, and beat Carter 2-0 in the only golden helmet match race I saw between them. The closest I ever saw Carter to having a bad meeting at Hyde Rd was his final appearance there ina test vs Denmark, scored 8 from his first three rides, but then fell in his next two (both broken footrests I seem to recall). For me without a doubt the best visting rider of my era. Behind those two I would have Gundersen and Nielsen. Gindersen was a true Hyde Rd specialist, along with Carter the rider I most feared. Nielsen was nigh on unbeatable around Hyde Rd in the latter years of it's existence, I suspect largely because he was pretty much unbeatable on any track at that point! Behind those two, I'd have S Moran and Penhall. Shooey was another Belle Vue specialist, though I don't recall him ever winning a major meeting there, or scoring a maximum - but conversely, don't recall him ever scoring less than double figures on BLRC night, and he always looked class. Penhall wasn't so much a specialist, just a true class rider who could ride rpretty much any track well. After those two I'd have two home track riders, Larry Ross and Peter Collins, who behind Mort were clearly the next best Aces riders of my era( to clarify, 81-87, so I missed PC's peak years). Both consistently excellent around Hyde Rd in the BL, and both with remarkable BLRC records (don't believe either ever cored less than double digits there) - though Larry's BLRC appearances actually all occurred before my ime, and in Dons' colours.

I would have thought so. Surprised that Ove Fundin didn't get in the top 150 Swedes, there are some pretty mediocre footballers on that list. A similar poll in NZ I would imagine would see both Barry Briiggs and Ivan Maugermake the list, Ronnie Moore is probably also deserving but doesn't have the same profile, I'd be surprised if too many of the NZ public knew about his achievements.

When you've committed a serious crime, there is no guarantee you can simply resume your previous profession. Teachers, lawyers etc. would be precluded should they get a rape conviction. in this case, he has a public role, and hence the public hsve the right (freedom of speech) to express their thoughts. It is then down to employers to choose whether public backlash outweighs what ched brings to their business. I dont think anyone objects to ched having a job, but people do object to it being a high profile one.

Gb/england was much stronger in the 70s - thats ubdisputed the bl was stronger thsn the current el - it had more of the worlds top riders for sure, albeit spread over twice the number of teams, but overall I'd agree with this statement, with the rider that its relative to world standards however, the original statement from sid was that there were more top class riders in the 70s/80s than there sre today. That I've yet to see any genuine argument presented for, and irs definitely not a view I agree with.

Holder and hancock @ 10/1 seem best value bets for mine. nki and nicki @ 8/1seem decent value, hampel @ 12/1 likewise. kk and tai favourites, 5/1 seems about right, but doesn't seem to offer as much value as the other candidates.

if your son met a female athlete at a club and went back to her hotel for sex, would you say this showed he had no self respect? Would you give him "both barrels"?

Not what he said. He said the 70s BL, not the 70s. That's a significant difference.

Id imagine todays second strings are more competitive. Ther are all professionals, and as such have comparatively better equipment than their latter day equivalents. Secondly, the move to designated gates mean the top riders can't dominate the favoured gates as in the past.

Sid - in the past, did the top riders lose more often or less often to second strings than they do today? Because on one hand you are saying the top riders then were better than top riders today, but on the other you are saying they were beaten by second strings more often?

The bl was indisputably stronger than the current el, i think we all agree on that sid. However, that doesnt mean that the sport in genersl was stronger.

i don't think it's an unfashionable view at all, albeit a position that's easy to take with the benefit of hindsight. Nielsen and Gundersen would both be regarded amongst the top dozen riders of all time, Carter top 50 maybe. However, in 81 and 82 Carter (similar age to the two Danes) was clearly someway ahead of them. In 83 Carter had a poor season, and was arguably overtaken by them. In 84 his season was a write off, 85 he would have been a hot favourite for the world title but for injury. So in the seasons they raced at the top level (80-85) they were very close, and at the point of Carter's death note that Hans hadn't won world individual title either (neither had he won a BLRC at that stage). As for a cool head- Nicki Pedersen has three world titles! Apart from 82, I don't recall Carter being involved in too much controversy in major events - he was knocked off by Penhall in 81 overseas final, and fenced Sigalos in the 82 BLRC (IIRMC). Hans however lost three world titles in run offs, crashed in 85 then dropped crictical points in the re-run, got away with knocking Knudsen off in 86, got cost the title by being excluded for knocking Ermolenko off in the 93 world final, seem to recall a controversial clash with Sigalos in the 83 inter-continental final. Fact is, you needed a bit of luck on world final nights - and KC never got it. Sid's point is that the era Hans/Eric dominated was unique in that in a very short space of time the sport lost prematurely 5 of arguably the top 8 world championship contenders (Penhall, Sigalos, Carter, Lee and Sanders). HAd those others been around, it's highly likely that the Danes would have won lsess world titles - if they had ended with one or two a piece say we'd regard them perhaps to the likes of Michanek or Knuttsson (i.e. very good world champs) rather than in the very top ties. Similarly the Danes (best alltime pairing they might be) would have been unlikely to have won the Pairs 6 years straight if competing against Penhall/Sigalos or Lee/Carter. The WTC similarly, amazing as the Gundersen/Nielsen/Pedersen/Knudsen team was - would it have dominated the same against say Penhall/Sigalos/Ermolenko/Moran or Lee/Carter/Morton/Wigg? Conversely, at the other end maybe they both would have won more if Erik hadn't got injured? agree with all of this. I too was there at the Odsal semi. worth noting though that having been on just two points at the interval, he still managed to qualify by winning his last two rides and then a three man run off to secure his place. ok Sid, as you know I've devised a ranking system to assess riders within their own era. In 2013 my 30th best rider in the world was Buczowski and in 2014 Freddie Lindgren by comparision, In 1983 it was a very much passed his best Mauger and in 84 Finn Thomsen. To take a couple of other years, in 82 it was Mitch Shirra, 86 Peter Carr, 89 Paul Thorp. Can you really say that the 30th best rider in the world in the 80s was definitely stronger than their equivalent in the 2010s? I think it's fair to say when you look back things can look stronger than they were, as with riders who were emerging youngsters at the time you are now aware of what they went on to achieve, or riders who were passed their peak you can forget quite where they were in their career in a given season.

agree with the rest of your post, but not this.In 81 penhall was clearly the best rider on the night, followed I would say by jessup. A toss up between carter and gundersen as to who was 3rd best. in 82 I think its hard to call between penhall, kc and les collins as to who was the best rider on the night - argument could go either way. disagree. Carter I think would have won in 85 if not for injury. Lee was still only 23 at his last world final - had he not gone off the rsils he would have been a force for another decade. Sigslos was good enough to be world champ, and of course penhall could (would?) have won more titles. The only one I dont think would have impactrd on the danes dominance was sanders - excellent rider, but to me never really looked likr being a world champ - the only truly dominant display on a major occsion I recsll from him was the 83 pairs finsl - and of course his fsll denied him a richly deserved gold medal. definitely they were included in the averages in 84 - its the reason eric dropped around a point and a half off his average.I actually thought they were still included in averages through at least til 87 - and am pretty sure tape exclusuons counted as a "ride" for the 3 ride minimum - but I don't have any evidence to support this, just my recollection.

I think 82 was the last year he tried went out in ic in 80 & 81, overseas final in 82

emil and darcy are good enough to win it.g laguta at a push could be in contention for a rostrum spot. The other three are very good riders, but would be exceeding expectations if they made the top 8.

Kk would be my pick - or he could finish 10th! Nki and greg would be my picks to join him on the podium. cant rule out tai, nicki, holder or hampel. Add zagar thats my top 8.

Have to say I'm tempted by this (and also the mort and shooey ones). Is there any footage of his blrc victories? KC was the best rider I saw round hyde rd in the 80s bar none, but certainly a polarising figure. If social media had been around in the 80s he may have broken the internet.

Scores (20 heats): Gundersen 13, s moran 12, tatum 11, wigg 10, morton 10,l collins 10, mckinna 8, n collins 7, thorp 6, ravn 5, doncaster 5, king 5, phil collins 3 (4 rides only), blackbird 2, smith 2, hornby 0 (reserve, 1 ride). 6 lap final: s moran, wigg, morton, tatum, gundersen, k moran. match race: penhall beat peter collins 3-0.

Not everyone agrees that every rider in the world needs to be included. None of the old world finals did. most of the countries you mention would go through the continental quslifiers, as they did historically. south africa as far as im aware dont have any riders of anywhere near top standard, so like canada may miss out. I beleve mike ferreira of zimbabwe used to go through the British rounds so maybe that would be an option. 150 isnt meant to be definitive. If there was a rider roughly in this range, then there should be an attempt to ensure that his country had at least one spot in the quarter finals. Would be down to individual governing bodies how their national qualifications worked.

British riders I'd imagine you would have as per the 80s, with qualifying rounds, semis and final. Australia I'd imagine the aussie championship in jan would be the qualifier, ditto nz (who I would see getting just one slot in the overseas final). Had given no thought to Canada or argentina tbh - do either have any riders of sufficient merit? Possibly one slot in the overseas final, but personally I dont believe it that important that EVERY rider in the world has a chance to participate - the top 150 or so I think is fine. id imagine the overseas final would always be held in Britain, with the ic final rotating between britsin denmark and sweden.