waiheke1

Remember the old inter leaguecup? 1975 Swindon refused to race Boston as they said it would be insulting to their fans to race 2nd division opposition!

So yeates was the equivalent of Rochdale. Morton and Collins manutd. Would you say rochdale are a mega good side? Or average? Mediocre?

in fact it seems to be almost a policy in the Euros not to go 4 back when there is a first bend crash. there was another instance in this meeting where the rider in yellow came down and was excluded where normally it would be all 4 back, and i seem to recall a couple of instances from the first meeting as well.

Puodzuks 40 more tai 20 more hancock 40 more KK 40 more Pedersen 20 more holder 40 less

tyler42, on 11 Jul 2015 - 05:26 AM, said: A top 2nd division rider back in the day would be lucky if he could score a couple of points! In the 1st division and that was at reserve. Then again he would be up against the likes Collins, Penhall, Lee, Moran Bros etc etc!. A little bit harder Imo Than the likes of Lingrern, Harris, King, AJ and a whole host of DU PL riders. Simply not true. In 81 for example Rob Maxfield was Belle Vue’s number 8, andaveraged over 6. In 82, the likes of Joe Owen and Simon Wigg were number 8s for BL sides and averaged over 6. Martin Dixon averaged around 5.5 for Halifax. In 86 the likes of Les Collins, Paul Thorp, Gary Havelock were number 8s for BL sides and averaged over 6. Of those only Wigg in 82 rode at reserve. Those are xamples I can think of off the top of my head, there would be many others. Which PL riders can score as many in the PL as EL? Cook/King certainly don’t. Possibly riders who are 2nd sting in the EL can due to the easier heat format, but the EL is much stronger than PL. People use Doyle as an example (in the old days you wouldn’t be a number 1 in both leagues) – but that shows the trenght – doyle is a top 20 in the world rider, so its really like say Jan Andersson or Phuil Ctump doubling down to the NL in the 80s – of course they would be a number 1 in the NL! tyler42, on 11 Jul 2015 - 07:50 AM, said: . For example take Martin Yates No1 at Weymouth early 80's NL. Can you honestly say at the same time He could have been No1 at Swindon? I think we both would agree the answer would be no. I would say If he were riding today, he would have no trouble scoring double figures In the EL. No he couldn’t have been number 1 in the BL – refer above to my Doyle example. You’re proving the strength of today’s PL. He also wouldn’t have “no problem” scroring double figures today. As Grachan has pointed, out only the world class riders (Puk, Ward etc.) average 8. On a good day Yeates might score 10 riding as a 2nd string, but given this is rare for the likes of Cook (who I would rate much higher), it would hardly be “no trouble”. Two meetings where I saw Yeates ride stand out for me. One was the 83 NL Pairs, where he won his last 4 rides to win Weymouth the title. The other was the 84 overseas final, reaching it being arguably his greatest achievement. He made the gate as I recall in every heat, but was picked off to finish with 2 points from his five riders. Quite simply, he was not good enough to compete at that level, whereas he was a top NL rider. Compare to say Craig Cook who picked up 7 points in a GP. tyler42, on 11 Jul 2015 - 09:27 AM, said: As for saying Woffinden, Holder ward is not irrelevant on the contrary, If you can't grasp that you have only named three riders plus NP. Does that not say there's not been much in the way of talent coming through from the PL. How many world champs came through the old PL? Lee, Collins and Loram all I belive rode in it for just on season, Havelock for two. Most world champs of the 70s/80s did not ride in it at all (Nielsen, Gundersen, Michanek, Mauger, Olsen, Ermolenko, Jonsson, Jan O). Whereas in the modern era you’ve had Crump, Pedersen, Holder, Woffinden . Either way, all it proves is that it’s a stepping stone league. Gavan, on 11 Jul 2015 - 10:38 AM, said: I started watching National league in the 1980's at Rye House and the national league back in the 80's through to the 90' was far far tougher than the premier league now. Garrard, Cox, Silver, Woods, Kennett, Dugard, Hunter, J Owen, T Owen, L.Collins, Wyer, Crabtree, Monaghan, Jackson, Finch, Lawson, Mckinna, Yeates, Wigg, Butler, Thorp, Galvin, Loram, Schofield, Wiltshire, Ferriera, Luckhurst, R Morton I could list loads of riders in that 10 year period who would quite simply top the premier league averages today but yet would struggle in the British League if you think the premier now is stronger than the old national league then you are in cloud cuckoo land That’s a randon mix of names. You’ve got some who were the very definition of journeymen – Monaghan, Crabtree, Ferreira, Yeates, capable of being at best decent BL 2nd strings, with no impact at higher levels. They would not top the PL averages today. Then you name the likes of Thorp who as soon as he had had one god season in the NL moved up to the BL, where he was a heat leader the next season. Wigg was a heat leader the next season too. Other ssuch as Les Collins and Joe Owen had many seasons as BL heat leaders, and could have remained as heat leaders but chose the “easy life.” Regardless, you could give a list of equally good or better riders who have ridden PL over the last 10 years. tyler42, on 11 Jul 2015 - 8:12 PM, said: I did not say he would be as good as Ward, Janowski and Iversen but the standard of the EL is so poor Imo he would have no trouble getting double figures. Let's put it another way, do you think Ben Barker, Simon Stead, Richard Lawson to name but a few would have been out and out No1's in the NL when Yates was riding for Weymouth? As for saying Schofield, Yates the Owen bros were just decent riders. that is open to debate, but imo there's not a lot of English riders the PL who could hold a candle to any of them! Yes, I think Barker, Stead and Lawson are better than Yeates. True, but that shows the standard of British riders has fallen, I don’t think anyone would disagree with that. BWitcher, on 11 Jul 2015 - 11:44 PM, said: No you haven't. Another utter myth that has been dismantled many times. Teams didn't have 'three world class heat leaders'. Some teams did on occasion.. the majority didn't. Those that did very often had very poor reserves. Correct – by definition, you can only have say 10-15 world class riders at any time. So on average in a 15 team league you’d have on average one per team. But some teams had more than one, meaning others had none let alone three. Gavan, on 12 Jul 2015 - 12:56 AM, said: Lets look at the top premier league riders today and the top national league boys in the late 80;s early 90's then shall we. Cook, Stead, King, Kennett, Masters are probably the best riders in the league. Back in the late 80's riders of their calibre would have struggled to make the British Final. You had Galvin, Loram , Louis, Schofield, Boyce, Adams, Wiltshire, Crump, Butler, Thorp. All these riders bar Galvin and Schoey made the World Final. Im puzzled how anyone in their right mind thinks the premier league is stronger now. my team are in it and yes the racing is good but its not a great standard. Take the league from 1981 and its stronger than now. Take the league from 1989 its still stronger. How hard it was to make the British final is irrelevant to how strong the NL was? I agree that the late 80s NL was srtonger than the 702/early 80s, as the reduced number of BL teams meant more decent riders rode second tier. But none of the riders you named rode NL while reaching world finals – the closest was Thorp in 86 falling a round short, and that was a year when he cleaned up the NL. You’ve given 8 riders over a 7ish year period who rode NL who subsequently reached world finals. You could do the same today. tyler42, on 12 Jul 2015 - 12:59 AM, said: So would you say it's a utter myth the the current 1st division is the weakest it has been for 50 years. The current EL boasts 6 world class riders, soon to be 7. Then you have DU riders and as for the reserves. even the poor ones back then would match the money saving farce FTR of today. it's the equivalent of putting second half riders in your team back in the day. Only back then they would not be beating riders in the main body of the team!. Today’s FTR riders are as good as BL reserves I would say. Second half riders in those days were arguably the standard of Mdl riders today – there are actually much better formal structures in place today for progression. OF course some 2nd half riders did appear in the BL, and were typically outclassed – the same riders generally struggled to make an impact at NL level also. Are any EL reserves today as weak as say the Gledhill/Barret pairing of the 82 Cradley side that should have won the league? Any riders as weak as say Mark Crang or Stephen Collins? Any pair not better than say the Hackett/Slater pairing that was part of the unbeated Coventry BL side of 87? sidney, on 12 Jul 2015 - 01:42 AM, said: The British league did. Mauger,Collins,Sjosten,)Louis,Sanders,Davey. )Betts,Lee, Turner.) Kennett, Moran Woods.) Gundersen,Penhall, Grahame, Collins. ) Wilson Jessup Boulger.) Mauger Autrey,Titman) Ashby Kilby Andersson) Shirra Andersson Jonsson ) Just a few there over different years the BL was very good up to about 1986 in my opinion.There were weak teams of course but most of those were very good at home and had big home advantages.A thing that you FORGET is most sides then had a proper number 1 how many are there in the EL now?i have to say if you cant see that the level then was a much higher level then maybe i need glasses. Out of the EL sides, I would say only Wolves (due to Lindgren’s poor form) do not have a genuine number one, maybe Coventry at a push. Though I would argue both Freddie and Harri s are as good/better as a number of BL number ones in the 80s (Owen and Campbell/Mauger in 84, Woods in 83, Knight in 85 etc.) Poole have two “number ones.” sidney, on 12 Jul 2015 - 01:55 AM, said: Believe me it was was far from MEDIOCRE and i take people's opinion who i respect who watched regular NL racing alot more seriously than your poorly thought out belief it is so odvious you did not see NL racing.I would love to here what Tsunami had to think about those really good Newcastle sides over the years were they full of mediocrity!! in the old NL. Noone has said the league was mediocre, nor the racing. As for those Newcastle sides, they were very good, but certainly no representative of the league’s overall standard. sidney, on 12 Jul 2015 - 07:43 AM, said: I will not mention any top class riders in this list these riders were BL second/ string reserve riders some better some even reached British finals winners/and higher.All well respected started in the NL, Auffrett,Bastable,N.Evitts,Pendlebury,Janke,Kennedy,Ferreira,Holloway,Hunt,Flatman,Jolly,Etheridge,Glover,M.Hines,Rossiter,Knight,Cross, Cartwright,Johns,Middleditch,Gagen,Finch,Galvin,Maxfield,Turner,Gachet,Dixon,Graham,Gugielmi,Mullett,Hewlett did well a massive loss) Mckeon,Howgego,Cox,Harding(massive loss) Drury,Woods,Herne,Weatherby,Geer,Lanham,Greer,J.Owen,T.Lomas,P.Carr,L.Carr,D.Kennett,Hunter,Mckinna,Reg.Wilson,Underwood,Thorp,White,Tyrer,Wigg,Richardson,Sampson,M.Piddock,Willmott,Thomas,Plant, Perks, Peterson.A few there some underachieved bigtime but my point was the old NL/ D2 served a purpose and it was far from MEDIOCRE. Most of those riders were mediocre. That’s not an insult. Ask any Liverpool fan what they think of Djimi Traoore, and mediocre would be the most favourable response you’d get. But if you’d gone to school with him, he would have been by far the best footballer in his year. If you’d played social club football with him you’d think he was awesome. But for a preofessional top-flight footballer he was mediocre. IT doesn’t mean he’s not good at footballer, or better than you or I. Just by the standards of thjose who do that as a profession, he is average. Which by definition, at least 50% of any profression must be. A mediocre builder is still a better builder than I am, and capable of doing a decent job – its not an insult! sidney, on 12 Jul 2015 - 8:46 PM, said: I bow down to YOUR Words of WISDOM?? this is from a bloke who said the NL was a MEDIOCRE league.Full of JOURNEYMAN ( old men on the slide) and MEDIOCRE riders. Lee,Collins, Havelock,Loram four English world champions they started there journey in the NL oh but they only rode in it because it was EASY yeh Right!!! Yep, and they all left it after 1 or 2 seasons, because to become a world champ they needed to be racing at a better level. The NL served its purpose, which was a league where youngsters with potential could develop, older riders could race as their skills dimmed, and journeymen could forge a career. And for the fans, there would be good and bad meetings, just like any speedway league.

Was the 84 BL league stronger than the current EL – yes. Were the teams in it stronger than the current EL – probably, but not by as much as people think. Certainly the top 3 teams (Belle Vue, Cradley, Ipswich) were stronger than any of the current EL teams. But the bottom teams (Exter, Newcastle, Halifax) were weaker than any current EL side. In a 16 team league, with most of the world’s top riders (exceptions Kelly Moran, Egon Muller, and Kenny Carter/Dennis Sigalos who missed basically the whole season with injury), if the teams were equal strength each team would have: A number one ranked in the top 20 in the world, two more heat-leaders ranked in the top 50, two second strings ranked in the top 100 (taking into account that in this range you had some American and European riders not racing in Britain, plus some top NL riders who would fall into thuis range), and then two reserves of varying strengths. Compare to the current EL: I would say 5 teams materially fit that criteria: Belle Vue, Swindon, Poole definitely meet that criteria (would add that Poole have two top 20 riders). Coventry arguably don’t have a top 20 rider (possibly two in the top 30 though), while Stuart Robson is probably not top 100 (Joonas/King as stronger 2nd string compensate being close to top 50), and also have a reserve pairing which is probably as strong as any from 84 (except perhaps Aces pair of P Carr and McKinna) Kings Lynn meet all criteria, except that Porsing is probably not top 100 (counteracting that Lambert must be pushing top 50) Of the other sides: I would say that Lakeside and Leicse terwould need to upgrade one of their second strings to a heat leader. Wolves would arguably need a number one (Tai or Pawlicki jnr) to replace on their second strings. So the current Elite league is probably three strong riders short of having sides which are as good (on average) of those from 84. If you exclude the top 3 sides from 84, who arguably had 7 of the world’s top 20, and 12 of the world’s top 50, riders between them , then I would say the current EL teams are as strong (on average) as those from the 84 BL. Lawson has ridden most of this season as a heat leader, which means much harder races than a top 5 rider in 84 - so I would reiterate that he is probably comparable to thsoe you mentioned, except for Alan grahame whose form in other competitions (e.g. qualifying for World Final) would mark him out as clearly superior.

That list is not as impressive as it looks though as that was cross's first full season, Tatum's second ditto Miller. Alan Grahame was still class and well ahead of where Lawson is. Bastable was no longer the rider he was in 81/82. Apart from Grahame, Lawson wouldn't be out of place in that company imho.

Andy Campbell averaged around 7.5 in 1984. The following season he moved to belle vue ostensibly to be a heat leader, the league shrank to 11 teams and he dropped to being a 5 point rider despite time at reserve. Lawson is better than Campbell imho. Maybe similar to mark Courtney who also averaged around 7.5 in 1984. But of course if you expanded current bl to 16 teams it would depend who you filled it with. If it was with riders of same standard as the current teams, Lawson would remain a 6.5 rider. If filled it with pl riders he would potentially become an 8 pt rider.

To support their club?

Bafflingly I think he did, and is not alone in his belief. It's amazing how many people don't seem to understand how averages are calculated, or have strange ideas about r/r rides or heat 15 not being included.

Woosh!

Couldnt believe the commentary team didn't think gollob to blame. And even more surprised that many on hear agree with them. He cut straight out off his line and cleaned Nicki out. 100% right decision. And all the riders saying it was the wrong decision. Had Nicki done what gollob did 100% would be saying he was to blame. Really hope Emil does the GPS next year. Tai best rider in the world at the moment but Emil and Nicki not that far behind. Good also to see lindback riding well, hopefully he will be the only swede in the series next year.

No mention of speedway in that review norbold. Are you SURE the book contains speedway references?

Is it definitely 1.4? I thought it was 0.6.Scb?

Tougher league this year though. Pretty sure r worral would be based on his 14 el average so would be too high. Probably summers or Compton would be the best options? Would expect kcramer to outscore them.

Which Brits do you have in mind that would fit on average, not miss meetings due to fixture clashes and be capable of the 4-5 pts you'd expect krcmar to average?

Yes. It would be utter madness are my thoughts.

So the riders disadvantaged by having a rubbish gate in their first ride then get further disadvantaged by having a ballast attached when they get a favourable gate? Was that meant to make it fairer?

Would expect krcmar to ride to his average, though agree he won't make the same impact milik did.If I was a Swindon fan I'd be happy with the changes, not sure there were any better alternatives. People saying batch should have gone instead of howarth but batch plus krcmar surely stronger than howarth plus sub 6 pointer. And ward/krcmar likely stronger than howarth plus any of the alternative replacement s for AM

Surely the guest scores are irrelevant, as now am is not injured there would be no facility (or for max 28 days). So the comparison is howarth and Pl 6pter vs ward and krcamer

surely he took the highest and lowest and divided by two? To know the median he would have needed the numbers in between The range is the highest number less the lowest number, nothing to do with a midpoint?

Dave sorry to take this on another tangent but are there any seasons in the 80s you have a similar file for the aces to the one you did for Exeter 84? You're a legend mate Hope someone can help out re the netherlands

Will Wilson Dean eventually be of el standard? Good pl standard? What are the thoughts of those who've watched him? great to have a kiwi racing in the UK again.

No that's the mean. Though with a population of two there is an argument it is also the median, being the midpoint between the two middle numbers.

Thought someone (Phil?) posted earlier that they did try to rectify the issue but succeeded only in making gate 1 better (or evened out 2-4 somewhat)