waiheke1

Porsing reported as possibly breaking a collarbone. Obviously very unfortunate for him, but may actually prove beneficial for kl in forcing them to get a (stronger) replacement for rest of season and play offs. Sounds like a lot of passing based on the updates. Edit: porsing back out so obviously he is ok

Hardly being rewarded for bad behaviour, he'd be being rewarded for being in the top couple of riders outside those who had filled the 11 qualifying spots.

Oh yes he can...

Can't see batch making top 8 phil

I think he will be in and have no problem with it. If he doesn't get a wild card he will effectively have had a 3 year ban from GPS. Yes his own fault. But a much heftier penalty than the likes of Moran,Correy and others had for failing alcohol tests, or the likes of Moran or Havelock for failing drugs tests. The only risk I see to ward getting a wildcard would be if holder finished 9th this season.

Simon wigg was apparently the same, couldn't help himself and had to tinker with the set ups even when things were going great. On a side note, what happened with Harris's engine in his final heat?

Surely he should know whether or not he agreed to it? Though regardless the rules still don't allow a fixture to be postponed like that.

Brilliant thanks - Mort at his best!

A co incidence maybe. Or could you explain how u think this is ironic?

Must have been a decent racing surface in 1980 for Mort to win the ic final there. Sadly doesn't seem to be any footage of one of his finest achievements.

Tbf its not a poole thing. Coventry fans calling for Hans and Robson to be dropped. Kl fans calling for bjerre and porsing to be dropped. Would add that often it makes more sense to drop a rider who has increased their average riding 2nd string than a rider who has decreased their average as a heat leader.

Thanks Dave (and others) Sid - from what's on YouTube looked like sigalos' pass in the run off was one of very few in the meeting?

Fercious?

Hi Does anyone have the scorecard and/or heat results for this meeting? Thanks

I thought you said we were talking about the same thing. Now you say we are talking about something different. Which is it? I have to ask, can you read English or do we need to translate to something else?

I think everyone knows the reason Coventry wanted the meeting off at heat nine was that they were losing, and knew the meeting would be called at heat ten. If they were winning they wouldn't have been concerned about safety until after heat 10. But - with Coventry having said the track was unsafe at heat nine, it seems ridiculous that they can be heavily fined for not racing heat ten when at the end of four Laps by two riders the track was deemed unsafe. How that decision was made is the key issue imho. But I believe Coventry, by trying to get the meeting restaged, muddied the waters, as that was never going to happen, and it took attention away from a valid concern to make it look like they simply tried to get the meeting called off to avoid losing.

If you're tired starman, why don't you just go back to sleep until jerran Hart gets released..

Dolgin's rankings, which take into account all meetings over the last two years and are arguably the most comprehensive ranking system around, still have him rated third in the world. My own system had him towards the lower end if top 20 at the end of last season. In reality I would say he is somewhere between those two points.

Can u name an Aussie with an el place who worrall is better than? I can't.Tbf worrall is the only Brit I can think of who is el standard but doesn't have a team place. And he is both younger and better than many riders on the draft list. But would agree with others that he needs to get a job outside speedway, though acknowledge also some difficulties due to the erratic work nights of a speedway rider.

I think the point was that averages have been used for team building since at least 1980, and RR and guests for longer still, so it seems somewhat flawed to cite these as the cause of speedway's decline in support. Next you'll be saying people are stopping attending because of the double point rule....

Really?Would darts ever use Phil power in marketing? Boxing ever use Tyson or may weather? Would football ever use sterling? Rugby ever use umaga or howlett or muliaini? If sports only used players who were exemplary role models off the pitch in their marketing, there would be a pretty small list I'm not sure that word means what you think it means

Lucifer Sam actually said he never rode "just" nl - which is true, he was an early "double downer." Edit: too slow, LS beat me to the reply

So in conclusion: the NL WAS full of journeymen and mediocre riders. Sounds like we're all agreed

sidney, on 15 Jul 2015 - 03:36 AM, said: One person did say that the old NL was full of MEDIOCRE riders and JOURNEYMAN and as it was Div 2 so it had to be EASY and it was a was a poor relation.That person was WItcher that statement was the one i hated totally untrue and everybody else have come up with great debate and put there case well you included.I don't agree with what you said about Yeates that year reaching the OVERSEAS Final outweighs anything the riders you named have achieved in there careers up to now.In the EL Ward,Puk,Doyle Janowski are the only in/out number 1s in my opinion. HE didn't say the league was easy, he said it was made up primarily of mediocre riders. He made clear that by mediocre he meant "average." He hasn't denied there were some good riders, but also there were some poor ones. You wouldn't class Zagar (reigning world number 4, currently5th in GPS), Holder (world champ in 2012, currently 6th in GPS) or Jonsson (2011 world no 2, currently 10th in GPs) as out and out number ones!?! lucifer sam, on 15 Jul 2015 - 06:04 AM, said: Interesting topic. And one where it is almost impossible to give a definitive answer, because there's always a valid counterpoint. Everyone's opinion is different and equally valid. For me, though: British League - was at its toughest from 1985 to 1990, when the number of teams was reduced from 18 to 20 down to 9 to 11, and yet the league still contained virtually all the world's top riders. National League - much, much harder to answer. In the 1970s and even into the 1980s, it was possible for a novice to make an instant impression in this league. But maybe this is because these days a rider has to tune up their machinery over a number of years, whereas back in 1970, everyone was on cheap and not very good machinery. That's not really an answer, is it? OK then. The modern-day cosmopolitan Premier League is probably now stronger than it's ever been. Probably too strong, because half the teams can't afford to pay the riders competing in it. However, in terms of strength of British riders ONLY: definitely at its peak from 1973 to 1977, maybe that period could be extended from 1972 to 1980. All the best Rob Largely agree with you Rob. The on rider I would add is that by the late 80s the sport in Britain had prematurely lost a number of geneuine superstars – Penhall, Sigalos, Lee, Carter, Sanders , so while the league was still tougher than the early 80s, not as tough as it could have been. And the reduced number of teams meant riders having to drop down to NL who were still good enough to be at least good BL 2nd strings. I would agree, as has been mentioned earlier, that this arguably meant the NL was also much stronger in the late 80s than the 70s/early 80s. I certainly agree re: British riders tyler42, on 15 Jul 2015 - 06:35 AM, said: Simply not true. In 81 for example Rob Maxfield was Belle Vue’s number 8, and averaged over 6. Yes he did but only from 11 matches In 82, the likes of Joe Owen and Simon Wigg were number 8s for BL sides and averaged over 6. Joe Owen 7 meetings only for Leicester averaged 5.93 Simon Wigg 7 Meetings only 6.67 Martin Dixon 12 meetings only 5.5 So yes Rob Maxifield and Simon Wigg posted averages over 6. Joe Owen and Martin Dixon did not. ​A common thread with all riders named is, they did not ride a full season! which consisted of 48 meetings in 82 Les Collins Sheffield 11 meetings Paul Thorpe 3 meetings Gary Havelock 15 meetings ​Once again a full season was 47 meetings. Havelock with 15 meetings ridden is the only fair comparison and that is not even half a seasons racing. With Owen in 82 you didn’t include his meeting for Cradley which pushed his BL average over 6.Regardless, your statement was that a top NL rider would struggle to score 2 points in the B, even riding from reserve. What my examples show is that is false (Dixon’s 5.5 average is higher than 2 if my maths is right) I can’t show you an NL heatleader who rode a full BL season the same year, as riders didn’t “double up/down” full time then. As Grachan has pointed, out only the world class riders (Puk, Ward etc.) average 8. On a good day Yeates might score 10 riding as a 2nd string, but given this is rare for the likes of Cook (who I would rate much higher), it would hardly be “no trouble”. In your opinion , not fact. Of course – it is purely my opinion that cook is better than Yeates.. The other was the 84 overseas final, reaching it being arguably his greatest achievement. I would have have thought the British Final of the same year would have been a far greater achievement when you see the riders he was racing against. Pos. Rider Points Details Kenny Carter 13 (3,1,3,3,3) Andy Grahame 12 (3,2,3,1,3) Dave Jessup 11 (2,3,2,2,2) 4 Les Collins 10 (2,3,1,3,1) 5 Martin Yeates 10 (1,3,3,1,2) 6 Alan Grahame 9 (3,0,3,3,X) 7Simon Wigg 8 (X,0,3,2,3) 8 Jeremy Doncaster 8 (X,2,2,1,3) 9 Peter Collins 7 (1,1,1,2,2) 10 Neil Evitts 7 (3,2,2,0,0) 11 Gordon Kennett 6 (2,1,1,2,0) 12 Chris Morton 5 (X,1,2,1,1) 13 John Louis 4 (X,2,0,0,2) 14 Phil Collins 3 (X,0,X,3,X) 15 John Davis 3 (1,1,0,0,1) 16 Mark Courtney 2 (2,0,0,0,0) 17 You miss my point. My statement was that reaching the Overseas final (i.e. qualifying from the British final) was his greatest achievement. I agree, in horrendous conditions he finished ahead of a number of quality riders, and this was an excellent achievement (the rarity of NL riders making it past the BL round surely is an argument AGAINST the standard of the NL though?) Compare to say Craig Cook who picked up 7 points in a GP. Craig Cooks 1st ride was fantastic, beating the world champion, ex world champion and a world class rider in Janowski. There is no denying that but, in his next race he scored 1 point. 3 riders only finished. 3rd in his next beating Chris Harris (not to hard to do. Most wildcards beat Chris). a last in his next. Then picked up 2 points beating the meeting reserves. At closer inspection his 7 points are not so impressive. It’s purely opinion, but I believe the GP field Cook faced was stronger than that of the 84 British final and that Cook’s 7 points in that meeting are more impressive than Yates 10 in the British Final. But that’s just my opinon, not a fact. How many world champs came through the old PL? Lee, Collins and Loram all I belive rode in it for just on season, Havelock for two. Most world champs of the 70s/80s did not ride in it at all (Nielsen, Gundersen, Michanek, Mauger, Olsen, Ermolenko, Jonsson, Jan O). Whereas in the modern era you’ve had Crump, Pedersen, Holder, Woffinden . Either way, all it proves is that it’s a stepping stone league. I agree to a certain extent but, The four you have named are all English. Back then The national League did not have any foreign riders untill 88 and then it was only 2! As you said all of the named world champions did not ride in the NL. Being all foreign, Not permitted,hence how can you make a comparison? The nationality of riders surely doesn’t make a difference as to how tough the league is? You seem to be agreeing with me, that the PL is now tougher as foreign riders are allowed in it. I agree that the standard of British riders was higher in previous years, but the point under discussion was whether the NL was tougher than the PL. That’s a randon mix of names. You’ve got some who were the very definition of journeymen – Monaghan, Crabtree, Ferreira, Yeates, capable of being at best decent BL 2nd strings, with no impact at higher levels. They would not top the PL averages today. Once again that is your opinion, not fact. Yes opinion. But would be interested as to why you think those riders are better than Cook, Stead, King etc. Then you name the likes of Thorp who as soon as he had had one good season in the NL moved up to the BL, where he was a heat leader the next season. Wigg was a heat leader the next season too. Paul Thorpe rode 6 years in the NL before moving up full time with Bell Vue and Simon Wigg had 3 full seasons at Weymouth before moving up with Cradley. Yes Thorp rose 6 seasons, but as soon as he had one really good season (86 where he topped the averages, won the NLRC and reached the intercontinental final), he moved up to BL. Wigg said himself that he stayed too long in the NL and should have moved up earlier. Yes, I think Barker, Stead and Lawson are better than Yeates. I don't think I ever saw Yates crash as many times as Barker and Stead. Maybe his was too slow to crash or could it be he was a far better rider. Once again only opinions on both sides, not fact. Another utter myth that has been dismantled many times. Teams didn't have 'three world class heat leaders'. Some teams did on occasion.. the majority didn't. Those that did very often had very poor reserves. Correct – by definition, you can only have say 10-15 world class riders at any time. So on average in a 15 team league you’d have on average one per team. But some teams had more than one, meaning others had none let alone three. Incorrect, Why by definition can you only have 10 - 15 world class riders? Are you going by riders making a world Final or No 1's of the British League? I might add That nearly all of the world's top riders of that era rode in the BL. Whereas now it's Poland and Sweden. Just my opinion, but I would consider a world class rider to be one you think capable of finishing on the podium in a one off World Final, or scoring a maximum in a world team cup final. In the old BL (prior to 88) I would normally have taken a BL average of 10 as a rudimentary cut off for “world class”, 9 for “international class” anmd 8 for “decent heat leader.” By your definition the EL has 8 clubs so in that respect It only needs 8 not 15 but, how many riders would you class as world class? Holder, Ward, Janowski, Zager, Iversen, Jonsson and Doyle. I can name 7. I agree The closest we can make comparisons would be 89. Then the BL had only 9 clubs. I’d say that by 89 t(probably from 85 onwards) the BL sides were stronger than the earlier period (70s/early80s), due to the reduction in number of treams. I would argue that the league then was closer to the current standard of Poland, whereas the earlier period I think was comparable to the current EL.Although I didn’t explicitly state t, my comparisions of current EL strength vs old BL were based on 15/16 teams.So no argument from me, the BL86-89 was stronger than the current EL. I would imo say these riders were world class. Belle Vue had the Moran Bros. Cradley had Erik Gundersen and Jan o Pedersen. Reading Jem Doncaster. Kelvin Tatum Coventry. Oxford Hans Nielsen and Simon Wigg. Wolves Sam Ermolenko. Swindon Jimmy Nilsen. So from 9 teams There were only 10 riders. So not a lot in to be fair but, then we come to 2nd and 3rd heat leaders,In your opinion would you say, That Belle Vue's Scott Nicholls and Craig Cook would match Chris Morton and Peter Ravn. Coventry's Hans Andersen and Chris Harris v Rick Miller and John Jorgenson. Kings Lynn's Kenneth Bjerre and Rory Schlein v Richard Knight Lance King. Swindon Troy Bacherlor and Nick Morris v Brian Karger and Andrew Silver. Wolves Freddy Lindgren and Peter Karlsson v Ronnie Correy and Neil Collins. There's no Poole of the 80's to compare but, Lets take Oxford. Poole Janowski and Dak North v Martin Dugard heat leader Andy Graham 2nd string. I would say Swindon 2015, Wolves 2015 are a better combo and Poole and Oxford equal. The others I give to the 89 teams. I’d say the Coventry pair are quite evenly matched as well. When it comes to 2nd strings. In your opinion riders such as Jacob Thorsell, Davey Watt, Zengota, Porsing, Kennet, I would say Lawson but, he seems to be deemed a heat leader and Sam Masters. would all be of a far better class than say Neil Evetts, Andy Smith, Marvyn Cox,Troy Butler, Per above, I agree that the 89 BL teams were much stronger than their 2015 equivalents. But try comparing say the 1984 teams (or any other year where there were 15+ BL teams) with the 2015 sides, and they will look much more even. Today’s FTR riders are as good as BL reserves I would say. Second half riders in those days were arguably the standard of Mdl riders today – there are actually much better formal structures in place today for progression. OF course some 2nd half riders did appear in the BL, and were typically outclassed – the same riders generally struggled to make an impact at NL level also. Reserves 89 Joe Screen, Carl Stonehewer, Glen Doyle Antal Koccso, Andy Hackett, Roman Matousek, Troy Butler / Andy Graham, Paul Dugard, Alan Graham, John Bostin, Andy Phillips, Jan Staechmann. And again, I agree the 89 league was stronger. But look at reserve pairings any year up to around 86 and I don’t think there is much in it. Incorrect. Riders who rode in the second half were not all novices and a lot of youngsters were farmed out to NL Clubs. Off the top of my head riders like Dave Brewer of Wimbledon went to Exeter. Martin Scarisbrick went to Newcastle. Simon Cross went to Oxford / Weymouth. You do seem to skip from year to year to back up your argument, regarding BL reserves and No 1's from the 80's. I'm using the present EL! Yes, I’m skipping from year to year as the “pro NL Brigade” gave lists of riders covering a period from last 70s to early 90s! Not all 2nd half riders were poor – at belle Vue Andy Smith came though at BL, Scarisbrick became a decent NL rider, but others (Lee Edwards, the Cleggs, Glen Hornby, David Wild) went on to achieve very little, and they were really the “pick of the bunch”. For the most part the standard of those riders was current mdl/NL, certainly not current PL standard. Yep, and they all left it after 1 or 2 seasons, because to become a world champ they needed to be racing at a better level. The NL served its purpose, which was a league where youngsters with potential could develop, older riders could race as their skills dimmed, and journeymen could forge a career. And for the fans, there would be good and bad meetings, just like any speedway league. I don't agree on they left just 1 or 2 seasons. Really? Which of the World Champs (Collins, Lee, Havelock, Loran rode more than 2 seasons in the NL?) I have already said Wigg and Thorpe were in that League a lot longe and the would have been others. Yes, I agree some riders stayed NL for longer. Dugard and Silver spring to mind. But if a rider wanted to improve to international standard they needed to go BL. everything else, you have said I agree 100%. The league catered for the young up and coming the experienced rider who stayed in that league all his career and the ex top riders on the way down. In what way did he put me right? He said NL riders would ride at reserve in BL and struggle to score 2 points. Which of those riders I listed averaged under 2? Though I will acknowledge some riders struggled to make the step up (charlie Mckinna, Nigel Crabtree spring to mind) - but surely that again is an argument against the strength of the NL? I would never dispute that Yeates achievement in qualifying from the 84 British final was a good one, against a quality field (have only seen the British Final on youtube, but I was at Hyde Rd for the Overseas final). That said, it wasn't a good outcome for England, as Morton and Peter Collins were in excellent form that season, and with no dis-respect, would have had a much better chance of making the world final than the likes of Yeates and Doncaster who qualified ahead of them.

Yep, a great result, and one that was remarkable for its rarity. Remember that great Newcastle side of 82/83 that then stepped up to the BL in 84 and finished bottom. Competitive at home, poor away. Joe Owen was a genuine BL heat leader, hunter and the recruited barge decent but the rest - bwitchers "m" word comes to mind.