waiheke1

If you're tired starman, why don't you just go back to sleep until jerran Hart gets released..

Dolgin's rankings, which take into account all meetings over the last two years and are arguably the most comprehensive ranking system around, still have him rated third in the world. My own system had him towards the lower end if top 20 at the end of last season. In reality I would say he is somewhere between those two points.

Can u name an Aussie with an el place who worrall is better than? I can't.Tbf worrall is the only Brit I can think of who is el standard but doesn't have a team place. And he is both younger and better than many riders on the draft list. But would agree with others that he needs to get a job outside speedway, though acknowledge also some difficulties due to the erratic work nights of a speedway rider.

I think the point was that averages have been used for team building since at least 1980, and RR and guests for longer still, so it seems somewhat flawed to cite these as the cause of speedway's decline in support. Next you'll be saying people are stopping attending because of the double point rule....

Really?Would darts ever use Phil power in marketing? Boxing ever use Tyson or may weather? Would football ever use sterling? Rugby ever use umaga or howlett or muliaini? If sports only used players who were exemplary role models off the pitch in their marketing, there would be a pretty small list I'm not sure that word means what you think it means

Lucifer Sam actually said he never rode "just" nl - which is true, he was an early "double downer." Edit: too slow, LS beat me to the reply

So in conclusion: the NL WAS full of journeymen and mediocre riders. Sounds like we're all agreed

sidney, on 15 Jul 2015 - 03:36 AM, said: One person did say that the old NL was full of MEDIOCRE riders and JOURNEYMAN and as it was Div 2 so it had to be EASY and it was a was a poor relation.That person was WItcher that statement was the one i hated totally untrue and everybody else have come up with great debate and put there case well you included.I don't agree with what you said about Yeates that year reaching the OVERSEAS Final outweighs anything the riders you named have achieved in there careers up to now.In the EL Ward,Puk,Doyle Janowski are the only in/out number 1s in my opinion. HE didn't say the league was easy, he said it was made up primarily of mediocre riders. He made clear that by mediocre he meant "average." He hasn't denied there were some good riders, but also there were some poor ones. You wouldn't class Zagar (reigning world number 4, currently5th in GPS), Holder (world champ in 2012, currently 6th in GPS) or Jonsson (2011 world no 2, currently 10th in GPs) as out and out number ones!?! lucifer sam, on 15 Jul 2015 - 06:04 AM, said: Interesting topic. And one where it is almost impossible to give a definitive answer, because there's always a valid counterpoint. Everyone's opinion is different and equally valid. For me, though: British League - was at its toughest from 1985 to 1990, when the number of teams was reduced from 18 to 20 down to 9 to 11, and yet the league still contained virtually all the world's top riders. National League - much, much harder to answer. In the 1970s and even into the 1980s, it was possible for a novice to make an instant impression in this league. But maybe this is because these days a rider has to tune up their machinery over a number of years, whereas back in 1970, everyone was on cheap and not very good machinery. That's not really an answer, is it? OK then. The modern-day cosmopolitan Premier League is probably now stronger than it's ever been. Probably too strong, because half the teams can't afford to pay the riders competing in it. However, in terms of strength of British riders ONLY: definitely at its peak from 1973 to 1977, maybe that period could be extended from 1972 to 1980. All the best Rob Largely agree with you Rob. The on rider I would add is that by the late 80s the sport in Britain had prematurely lost a number of geneuine superstars – Penhall, Sigalos, Lee, Carter, Sanders , so while the league was still tougher than the early 80s, not as tough as it could have been. And the reduced number of teams meant riders having to drop down to NL who were still good enough to be at least good BL 2nd strings. I would agree, as has been mentioned earlier, that this arguably meant the NL was also much stronger in the late 80s than the 70s/early 80s. I certainly agree re: British riders tyler42, on 15 Jul 2015 - 06:35 AM, said: Simply not true. In 81 for example Rob Maxfield was Belle Vue’s number 8, and averaged over 6. Yes he did but only from 11 matches In 82, the likes of Joe Owen and Simon Wigg were number 8s for BL sides and averaged over 6. Joe Owen 7 meetings only for Leicester averaged 5.93 Simon Wigg 7 Meetings only 6.67 Martin Dixon 12 meetings only 5.5 So yes Rob Maxifield and Simon Wigg posted averages over 6. Joe Owen and Martin Dixon did not. ​A common thread with all riders named is, they did not ride a full season! which consisted of 48 meetings in 82 Les Collins Sheffield 11 meetings Paul Thorpe 3 meetings Gary Havelock 15 meetings ​Once again a full season was 47 meetings. Havelock with 15 meetings ridden is the only fair comparison and that is not even half a seasons racing. With Owen in 82 you didn’t include his meeting for Cradley which pushed his BL average over 6.Regardless, your statement was that a top NL rider would struggle to score 2 points in the B, even riding from reserve. What my examples show is that is false (Dixon’s 5.5 average is higher than 2 if my maths is right) I can’t show you an NL heatleader who rode a full BL season the same year, as riders didn’t “double up/down” full time then. As Grachan has pointed, out only the world class riders (Puk, Ward etc.) average 8. On a good day Yeates might score 10 riding as a 2nd string, but given this is rare for the likes of Cook (who I would rate much higher), it would hardly be “no trouble”. In your opinion , not fact. Of course – it is purely my opinion that cook is better than Yeates.. The other was the 84 overseas final, reaching it being arguably his greatest achievement. I would have have thought the British Final of the same year would have been a far greater achievement when you see the riders he was racing against. Pos. Rider Points Details Kenny Carter 13 (3,1,3,3,3) Andy Grahame 12 (3,2,3,1,3) Dave Jessup 11 (2,3,2,2,2) 4 Les Collins 10 (2,3,1,3,1) 5 Martin Yeates 10 (1,3,3,1,2) 6 Alan Grahame 9 (3,0,3,3,X) 7Simon Wigg 8 (X,0,3,2,3) 8 Jeremy Doncaster 8 (X,2,2,1,3) 9 Peter Collins 7 (1,1,1,2,2) 10 Neil Evitts 7 (3,2,2,0,0) 11 Gordon Kennett 6 (2,1,1,2,0) 12 Chris Morton 5 (X,1,2,1,1) 13 John Louis 4 (X,2,0,0,2) 14 Phil Collins 3 (X,0,X,3,X) 15 John Davis 3 (1,1,0,0,1) 16 Mark Courtney 2 (2,0,0,0,0) 17 You miss my point. My statement was that reaching the Overseas final (i.e. qualifying from the British final) was his greatest achievement. I agree, in horrendous conditions he finished ahead of a number of quality riders, and this was an excellent achievement (the rarity of NL riders making it past the BL round surely is an argument AGAINST the standard of the NL though?) Compare to say Craig Cook who picked up 7 points in a GP. Craig Cooks 1st ride was fantastic, beating the world champion, ex world champion and a world class rider in Janowski. There is no denying that but, in his next race he scored 1 point. 3 riders only finished. 3rd in his next beating Chris Harris (not to hard to do. Most wildcards beat Chris). a last in his next. Then picked up 2 points beating the meeting reserves. At closer inspection his 7 points are not so impressive. It’s purely opinion, but I believe the GP field Cook faced was stronger than that of the 84 British final and that Cook’s 7 points in that meeting are more impressive than Yates 10 in the British Final. But that’s just my opinon, not a fact. How many world champs came through the old PL? Lee, Collins and Loram all I belive rode in it for just on season, Havelock for two. Most world champs of the 70s/80s did not ride in it at all (Nielsen, Gundersen, Michanek, Mauger, Olsen, Ermolenko, Jonsson, Jan O). Whereas in the modern era you’ve had Crump, Pedersen, Holder, Woffinden . Either way, all it proves is that it’s a stepping stone league. I agree to a certain extent but, The four you have named are all English. Back then The national League did not have any foreign riders untill 88 and then it was only 2! As you said all of the named world champions did not ride in the NL. Being all foreign, Not permitted,hence how can you make a comparison? The nationality of riders surely doesn’t make a difference as to how tough the league is? You seem to be agreeing with me, that the PL is now tougher as foreign riders are allowed in it. I agree that the standard of British riders was higher in previous years, but the point under discussion was whether the NL was tougher than the PL. That’s a randon mix of names. You’ve got some who were the very definition of journeymen – Monaghan, Crabtree, Ferreira, Yeates, capable of being at best decent BL 2nd strings, with no impact at higher levels. They would not top the PL averages today. Once again that is your opinion, not fact. Yes opinion. But would be interested as to why you think those riders are better than Cook, Stead, King etc. Then you name the likes of Thorp who as soon as he had had one good season in the NL moved up to the BL, where he was a heat leader the next season. Wigg was a heat leader the next season too. Paul Thorpe rode 6 years in the NL before moving up full time with Bell Vue and Simon Wigg had 3 full seasons at Weymouth before moving up with Cradley. Yes Thorp rose 6 seasons, but as soon as he had one really good season (86 where he topped the averages, won the NLRC and reached the intercontinental final), he moved up to BL. Wigg said himself that he stayed too long in the NL and should have moved up earlier. Yes, I think Barker, Stead and Lawson are better than Yeates. I don't think I ever saw Yates crash as many times as Barker and Stead. Maybe his was too slow to crash or could it be he was a far better rider. Once again only opinions on both sides, not fact. Another utter myth that has been dismantled many times. Teams didn't have 'three world class heat leaders'. Some teams did on occasion.. the majority didn't. Those that did very often had very poor reserves. Correct – by definition, you can only have say 10-15 world class riders at any time. So on average in a 15 team league you’d have on average one per team. But some teams had more than one, meaning others had none let alone three. Incorrect, Why by definition can you only have 10 - 15 world class riders? Are you going by riders making a world Final or No 1's of the British League? I might add That nearly all of the world's top riders of that era rode in the BL. Whereas now it's Poland and Sweden. Just my opinion, but I would consider a world class rider to be one you think capable of finishing on the podium in a one off World Final, or scoring a maximum in a world team cup final. In the old BL (prior to 88) I would normally have taken a BL average of 10 as a rudimentary cut off for “world class”, 9 for “international class” anmd 8 for “decent heat leader.” By your definition the EL has 8 clubs so in that respect It only needs 8 not 15 but, how many riders would you class as world class? Holder, Ward, Janowski, Zager, Iversen, Jonsson and Doyle. I can name 7. I agree The closest we can make comparisons would be 89. Then the BL had only 9 clubs. I’d say that by 89 t(probably from 85 onwards) the BL sides were stronger than the earlier period (70s/early80s), due to the reduction in number of treams. I would argue that the league then was closer to the current standard of Poland, whereas the earlier period I think was comparable to the current EL.Although I didn’t explicitly state t, my comparisions of current EL strength vs old BL were based on 15/16 teams.So no argument from me, the BL86-89 was stronger than the current EL. I would imo say these riders were world class. Belle Vue had the Moran Bros. Cradley had Erik Gundersen and Jan o Pedersen. Reading Jem Doncaster. Kelvin Tatum Coventry. Oxford Hans Nielsen and Simon Wigg. Wolves Sam Ermolenko. Swindon Jimmy Nilsen. So from 9 teams There were only 10 riders. So not a lot in to be fair but, then we come to 2nd and 3rd heat leaders,In your opinion would you say, That Belle Vue's Scott Nicholls and Craig Cook would match Chris Morton and Peter Ravn. Coventry's Hans Andersen and Chris Harris v Rick Miller and John Jorgenson. Kings Lynn's Kenneth Bjerre and Rory Schlein v Richard Knight Lance King. Swindon Troy Bacherlor and Nick Morris v Brian Karger and Andrew Silver. Wolves Freddy Lindgren and Peter Karlsson v Ronnie Correy and Neil Collins. There's no Poole of the 80's to compare but, Lets take Oxford. Poole Janowski and Dak North v Martin Dugard heat leader Andy Graham 2nd string. I would say Swindon 2015, Wolves 2015 are a better combo and Poole and Oxford equal. The others I give to the 89 teams. I’d say the Coventry pair are quite evenly matched as well. When it comes to 2nd strings. In your opinion riders such as Jacob Thorsell, Davey Watt, Zengota, Porsing, Kennet, I would say Lawson but, he seems to be deemed a heat leader and Sam Masters. would all be of a far better class than say Neil Evetts, Andy Smith, Marvyn Cox,Troy Butler, Per above, I agree that the 89 BL teams were much stronger than their 2015 equivalents. But try comparing say the 1984 teams (or any other year where there were 15+ BL teams) with the 2015 sides, and they will look much more even. Today’s FTR riders are as good as BL reserves I would say. Second half riders in those days were arguably the standard of Mdl riders today – there are actually much better formal structures in place today for progression. OF course some 2nd half riders did appear in the BL, and were typically outclassed – the same riders generally struggled to make an impact at NL level also. Reserves 89 Joe Screen, Carl Stonehewer, Glen Doyle Antal Koccso, Andy Hackett, Roman Matousek, Troy Butler / Andy Graham, Paul Dugard, Alan Graham, John Bostin, Andy Phillips, Jan Staechmann. And again, I agree the 89 league was stronger. But look at reserve pairings any year up to around 86 and I don’t think there is much in it. Incorrect. Riders who rode in the second half were not all novices and a lot of youngsters were farmed out to NL Clubs. Off the top of my head riders like Dave Brewer of Wimbledon went to Exeter. Martin Scarisbrick went to Newcastle. Simon Cross went to Oxford / Weymouth. You do seem to skip from year to year to back up your argument, regarding BL reserves and No 1's from the 80's. I'm using the present EL! Yes, I’m skipping from year to year as the “pro NL Brigade” gave lists of riders covering a period from last 70s to early 90s! Not all 2nd half riders were poor – at belle Vue Andy Smith came though at BL, Scarisbrick became a decent NL rider, but others (Lee Edwards, the Cleggs, Glen Hornby, David Wild) went on to achieve very little, and they were really the “pick of the bunch”. For the most part the standard of those riders was current mdl/NL, certainly not current PL standard. Yep, and they all left it after 1 or 2 seasons, because to become a world champ they needed to be racing at a better level. The NL served its purpose, which was a league where youngsters with potential could develop, older riders could race as their skills dimmed, and journeymen could forge a career. And for the fans, there would be good and bad meetings, just like any speedway league. I don't agree on they left just 1 or 2 seasons. Really? Which of the World Champs (Collins, Lee, Havelock, Loran rode more than 2 seasons in the NL?) I have already said Wigg and Thorpe were in that League a lot longe and the would have been others. Yes, I agree some riders stayed NL for longer. Dugard and Silver spring to mind. But if a rider wanted to improve to international standard they needed to go BL. everything else, you have said I agree 100%. The league catered for the young up and coming the experienced rider who stayed in that league all his career and the ex top riders on the way down. In what way did he put me right? He said NL riders would ride at reserve in BL and struggle to score 2 points. Which of those riders I listed averaged under 2? Though I will acknowledge some riders struggled to make the step up (charlie Mckinna, Nigel Crabtree spring to mind) - but surely that again is an argument against the strength of the NL? I would never dispute that Yeates achievement in qualifying from the 84 British final was a good one, against a quality field (have only seen the British Final on youtube, but I was at Hyde Rd for the Overseas final). That said, it wasn't a good outcome for England, as Morton and Peter Collins were in excellent form that season, and with no dis-respect, would have had a much better chance of making the world final than the likes of Yeates and Doncaster who qualified ahead of them.

Yep, a great result, and one that was remarkable for its rarity. Remember that great Newcastle side of 82/83 that then stepped up to the BL in 84 and finished bottom. Competitive at home, poor away. Joe Owen was a genuine BL heat leader, hunter and the recruited barge decent but the rest - bwitchers "m" word comes to mind.

Remember the old inter leaguecup? 1975 Swindon refused to race Boston as they said it would be insulting to their fans to race 2nd division opposition!

So yeates was the equivalent of Rochdale. Morton and Collins manutd. Would you say rochdale are a mega good side? Or average? Mediocre?

in fact it seems to be almost a policy in the Euros not to go 4 back when there is a first bend crash. there was another instance in this meeting where the rider in yellow came down and was excluded where normally it would be all 4 back, and i seem to recall a couple of instances from the first meeting as well.

Puodzuks 40 more tai 20 more hancock 40 more KK 40 more Pedersen 20 more holder 40 less

tyler42, on 11 Jul 2015 - 05:26 AM, said: A top 2nd division rider back in the day would be lucky if he could score a couple of points! In the 1st division and that was at reserve. Then again he would be up against the likes Collins, Penhall, Lee, Moran Bros etc etc!. A little bit harder Imo Than the likes of Lingrern, Harris, King, AJ and a whole host of DU PL riders. Simply not true. In 81 for example Rob Maxfield was Belle Vue’s number 8, andaveraged over 6. In 82, the likes of Joe Owen and Simon Wigg were number 8s for BL sides and averaged over 6. Martin Dixon averaged around 5.5 for Halifax. In 86 the likes of Les Collins, Paul Thorp, Gary Havelock were number 8s for BL sides and averaged over 6. Of those only Wigg in 82 rode at reserve. Those are xamples I can think of off the top of my head, there would be many others. Which PL riders can score as many in the PL as EL? Cook/King certainly don’t. Possibly riders who are 2nd sting in the EL can due to the easier heat format, but the EL is much stronger than PL. People use Doyle as an example (in the old days you wouldn’t be a number 1 in both leagues) – but that shows the trenght – doyle is a top 20 in the world rider, so its really like say Jan Andersson or Phuil Ctump doubling down to the NL in the 80s – of course they would be a number 1 in the NL! tyler42, on 11 Jul 2015 - 07:50 AM, said: . For example take Martin Yates No1 at Weymouth early 80's NL. Can you honestly say at the same time He could have been No1 at Swindon? I think we both would agree the answer would be no. I would say If he were riding today, he would have no trouble scoring double figures In the EL. No he couldn’t have been number 1 in the BL – refer above to my Doyle example. You’re proving the strength of today’s PL. He also wouldn’t have “no problem” scroring double figures today. As Grachan has pointed, out only the world class riders (Puk, Ward etc.) average 8. On a good day Yeates might score 10 riding as a 2nd string, but given this is rare for the likes of Cook (who I would rate much higher), it would hardly be “no trouble”. Two meetings where I saw Yeates ride stand out for me. One was the 83 NL Pairs, where he won his last 4 rides to win Weymouth the title. The other was the 84 overseas final, reaching it being arguably his greatest achievement. He made the gate as I recall in every heat, but was picked off to finish with 2 points from his five riders. Quite simply, he was not good enough to compete at that level, whereas he was a top NL rider. Compare to say Craig Cook who picked up 7 points in a GP. tyler42, on 11 Jul 2015 - 09:27 AM, said: As for saying Woffinden, Holder ward is not irrelevant on the contrary, If you can't grasp that you have only named three riders plus NP. Does that not say there's not been much in the way of talent coming through from the PL. How many world champs came through the old PL? Lee, Collins and Loram all I belive rode in it for just on season, Havelock for two. Most world champs of the 70s/80s did not ride in it at all (Nielsen, Gundersen, Michanek, Mauger, Olsen, Ermolenko, Jonsson, Jan O). Whereas in the modern era you’ve had Crump, Pedersen, Holder, Woffinden . Either way, all it proves is that it’s a stepping stone league. Gavan, on 11 Jul 2015 - 10:38 AM, said: I started watching National league in the 1980's at Rye House and the national league back in the 80's through to the 90' was far far tougher than the premier league now. Garrard, Cox, Silver, Woods, Kennett, Dugard, Hunter, J Owen, T Owen, L.Collins, Wyer, Crabtree, Monaghan, Jackson, Finch, Lawson, Mckinna, Yeates, Wigg, Butler, Thorp, Galvin, Loram, Schofield, Wiltshire, Ferriera, Luckhurst, R Morton I could list loads of riders in that 10 year period who would quite simply top the premier league averages today but yet would struggle in the British League if you think the premier now is stronger than the old national league then you are in cloud cuckoo land That’s a randon mix of names. You’ve got some who were the very definition of journeymen – Monaghan, Crabtree, Ferreira, Yeates, capable of being at best decent BL 2nd strings, with no impact at higher levels. They would not top the PL averages today. Then you name the likes of Thorp who as soon as he had had one god season in the NL moved up to the BL, where he was a heat leader the next season. Wigg was a heat leader the next season too. Other ssuch as Les Collins and Joe Owen had many seasons as BL heat leaders, and could have remained as heat leaders but chose the “easy life.” Regardless, you could give a list of equally good or better riders who have ridden PL over the last 10 years. tyler42, on 11 Jul 2015 - 8:12 PM, said: I did not say he would be as good as Ward, Janowski and Iversen but the standard of the EL is so poor Imo he would have no trouble getting double figures. Let's put it another way, do you think Ben Barker, Simon Stead, Richard Lawson to name but a few would have been out and out No1's in the NL when Yates was riding for Weymouth? As for saying Schofield, Yates the Owen bros were just decent riders. that is open to debate, but imo there's not a lot of English riders the PL who could hold a candle to any of them! Yes, I think Barker, Stead and Lawson are better than Yeates. True, but that shows the standard of British riders has fallen, I don’t think anyone would disagree with that. BWitcher, on 11 Jul 2015 - 11:44 PM, said: No you haven't. Another utter myth that has been dismantled many times. Teams didn't have 'three world class heat leaders'. Some teams did on occasion.. the majority didn't. Those that did very often had very poor reserves. Correct – by definition, you can only have say 10-15 world class riders at any time. So on average in a 15 team league you’d have on average one per team. But some teams had more than one, meaning others had none let alone three. Gavan, on 12 Jul 2015 - 12:56 AM, said: Lets look at the top premier league riders today and the top national league boys in the late 80;s early 90's then shall we. Cook, Stead, King, Kennett, Masters are probably the best riders in the league. Back in the late 80's riders of their calibre would have struggled to make the British Final. You had Galvin, Loram , Louis, Schofield, Boyce, Adams, Wiltshire, Crump, Butler, Thorp. All these riders bar Galvin and Schoey made the World Final. Im puzzled how anyone in their right mind thinks the premier league is stronger now. my team are in it and yes the racing is good but its not a great standard. Take the league from 1981 and its stronger than now. Take the league from 1989 its still stronger. How hard it was to make the British final is irrelevant to how strong the NL was? I agree that the late 80s NL was srtonger than the 702/early 80s, as the reduced number of BL teams meant more decent riders rode second tier. But none of the riders you named rode NL while reaching world finals – the closest was Thorp in 86 falling a round short, and that was a year when he cleaned up the NL. You’ve given 8 riders over a 7ish year period who rode NL who subsequently reached world finals. You could do the same today. tyler42, on 12 Jul 2015 - 12:59 AM, said: So would you say it's a utter myth the the current 1st division is the weakest it has been for 50 years. The current EL boasts 6 world class riders, soon to be 7. Then you have DU riders and as for the reserves. even the poor ones back then would match the money saving farce FTR of today. it's the equivalent of putting second half riders in your team back in the day. Only back then they would not be beating riders in the main body of the team!. Today’s FTR riders are as good as BL reserves I would say. Second half riders in those days were arguably the standard of Mdl riders today – there are actually much better formal structures in place today for progression. OF course some 2nd half riders did appear in the BL, and were typically outclassed – the same riders generally struggled to make an impact at NL level also. Are any EL reserves today as weak as say the Gledhill/Barret pairing of the 82 Cradley side that should have won the league? Any riders as weak as say Mark Crang or Stephen Collins? Any pair not better than say the Hackett/Slater pairing that was part of the unbeated Coventry BL side of 87? sidney, on 12 Jul 2015 - 01:42 AM, said: The British league did. Mauger,Collins,Sjosten,)Louis,Sanders,Davey. )Betts,Lee, Turner.) Kennett, Moran Woods.) Gundersen,Penhall, Grahame, Collins. ) Wilson Jessup Boulger.) Mauger Autrey,Titman) Ashby Kilby Andersson) Shirra Andersson Jonsson ) Just a few there over different years the BL was very good up to about 1986 in my opinion.There were weak teams of course but most of those were very good at home and had big home advantages.A thing that you FORGET is most sides then had a proper number 1 how many are there in the EL now?i have to say if you cant see that the level then was a much higher level then maybe i need glasses. Out of the EL sides, I would say only Wolves (due to Lindgren’s poor form) do not have a genuine number one, maybe Coventry at a push. Though I would argue both Freddie and Harri s are as good/better as a number of BL number ones in the 80s (Owen and Campbell/Mauger in 84, Woods in 83, Knight in 85 etc.) Poole have two “number ones.” sidney, on 12 Jul 2015 - 01:55 AM, said: Believe me it was was far from MEDIOCRE and i take people's opinion who i respect who watched regular NL racing alot more seriously than your poorly thought out belief it is so odvious you did not see NL racing.I would love to here what Tsunami had to think about those really good Newcastle sides over the years were they full of mediocrity!! in the old NL. Noone has said the league was mediocre, nor the racing. As for those Newcastle sides, they were very good, but certainly no representative of the league’s overall standard. sidney, on 12 Jul 2015 - 07:43 AM, said: I will not mention any top class riders in this list these riders were BL second/ string reserve riders some better some even reached British finals winners/and higher.All well respected started in the NL, Auffrett,Bastable,N.Evitts,Pendlebury,Janke,Kennedy,Ferreira,Holloway,Hunt,Flatman,Jolly,Etheridge,Glover,M.Hines,Rossiter,Knight,Cross, Cartwright,Johns,Middleditch,Gagen,Finch,Galvin,Maxfield,Turner,Gachet,Dixon,Graham,Gugielmi,Mullett,Hewlett did well a massive loss) Mckeon,Howgego,Cox,Harding(massive loss) Drury,Woods,Herne,Weatherby,Geer,Lanham,Greer,J.Owen,T.Lomas,P.Carr,L.Carr,D.Kennett,Hunter,Mckinna,Reg.Wilson,Underwood,Thorp,White,Tyrer,Wigg,Richardson,Sampson,M.Piddock,Willmott,Thomas,Plant, Perks, Peterson.A few there some underachieved bigtime but my point was the old NL/ D2 served a purpose and it was far from MEDIOCRE. Most of those riders were mediocre. That’s not an insult. Ask any Liverpool fan what they think of Djimi Traoore, and mediocre would be the most favourable response you’d get. But if you’d gone to school with him, he would have been by far the best footballer in his year. If you’d played social club football with him you’d think he was awesome. But for a preofessional top-flight footballer he was mediocre. IT doesn’t mean he’s not good at footballer, or better than you or I. Just by the standards of thjose who do that as a profession, he is average. Which by definition, at least 50% of any profression must be. A mediocre builder is still a better builder than I am, and capable of doing a decent job – its not an insult! sidney, on 12 Jul 2015 - 8:46 PM, said: I bow down to YOUR Words of WISDOM?? this is from a bloke who said the NL was a MEDIOCRE league.Full of JOURNEYMAN ( old men on the slide) and MEDIOCRE riders. Lee,Collins, Havelock,Loram four English world champions they started there journey in the NL oh but they only rode in it because it was EASY yeh Right!!! Yep, and they all left it after 1 or 2 seasons, because to become a world champ they needed to be racing at a better level. The NL served its purpose, which was a league where youngsters with potential could develop, older riders could race as their skills dimmed, and journeymen could forge a career. And for the fans, there would be good and bad meetings, just like any speedway league.

Was the 84 BL league stronger than the current EL – yes. Were the teams in it stronger than the current EL – probably, but not by as much as people think. Certainly the top 3 teams (Belle Vue, Cradley, Ipswich) were stronger than any of the current EL teams. But the bottom teams (Exter, Newcastle, Halifax) were weaker than any current EL side. In a 16 team league, with most of the world’s top riders (exceptions Kelly Moran, Egon Muller, and Kenny Carter/Dennis Sigalos who missed basically the whole season with injury), if the teams were equal strength each team would have: A number one ranked in the top 20 in the world, two more heat-leaders ranked in the top 50, two second strings ranked in the top 100 (taking into account that in this range you had some American and European riders not racing in Britain, plus some top NL riders who would fall into thuis range), and then two reserves of varying strengths. Compare to the current EL: I would say 5 teams materially fit that criteria: Belle Vue, Swindon, Poole definitely meet that criteria (would add that Poole have two top 20 riders). Coventry arguably don’t have a top 20 rider (possibly two in the top 30 though), while Stuart Robson is probably not top 100 (Joonas/King as stronger 2nd string compensate being close to top 50), and also have a reserve pairing which is probably as strong as any from 84 (except perhaps Aces pair of P Carr and McKinna) Kings Lynn meet all criteria, except that Porsing is probably not top 100 (counteracting that Lambert must be pushing top 50) Of the other sides: I would say that Lakeside and Leicse terwould need to upgrade one of their second strings to a heat leader. Wolves would arguably need a number one (Tai or Pawlicki jnr) to replace on their second strings. So the current Elite league is probably three strong riders short of having sides which are as good (on average) of those from 84. If you exclude the top 3 sides from 84, who arguably had 7 of the world’s top 20, and 12 of the world’s top 50, riders between them , then I would say the current EL teams are as strong (on average) as those from the 84 BL. Lawson has ridden most of this season as a heat leader, which means much harder races than a top 5 rider in 84 - so I would reiterate that he is probably comparable to thsoe you mentioned, except for Alan grahame whose form in other competitions (e.g. qualifying for World Final) would mark him out as clearly superior.

That list is not as impressive as it looks though as that was cross's first full season, Tatum's second ditto Miller. Alan Grahame was still class and well ahead of where Lawson is. Bastable was no longer the rider he was in 81/82. Apart from Grahame, Lawson wouldn't be out of place in that company imho.

Andy Campbell averaged around 7.5 in 1984. The following season he moved to belle vue ostensibly to be a heat leader, the league shrank to 11 teams and he dropped to being a 5 point rider despite time at reserve. Lawson is better than Campbell imho. Maybe similar to mark Courtney who also averaged around 7.5 in 1984. But of course if you expanded current bl to 16 teams it would depend who you filled it with. If it was with riders of same standard as the current teams, Lawson would remain a 6.5 rider. If filled it with pl riders he would potentially become an 8 pt rider.

Bafflingly I think he did, and is not alone in his belief. It's amazing how many people don't seem to understand how averages are calculated, or have strange ideas about r/r rides or heat 15 not being included.

Woosh!

Couldnt believe the commentary team didn't think gollob to blame. And even more surprised that many on hear agree with them. He cut straight out off his line and cleaned Nicki out. 100% right decision. And all the riders saying it was the wrong decision. Had Nicki done what gollob did 100% would be saying he was to blame. Really hope Emil does the GPS next year. Tai best rider in the world at the moment but Emil and Nicki not that far behind. Good also to see lindback riding well, hopefully he will be the only swede in the series next year.

No mention of speedway in that review norbold. Are you SURE the book contains speedway references?

So the riders disadvantaged by having a rubbish gate in their first ride then get further disadvantaged by having a ballast attached when they get a favourable gate? Was that meant to make it fairer?

surely he took the highest and lowest and divided by two? To know the median he would have needed the numbers in between The range is the highest number less the lowest number, nothing to do with a midpoint?

Dave sorry to take this on another tangent but are there any seasons in the 80s you have a similar file for the aces to the one you did for Exeter 84? You're a legend mate Hope someone can help out re the netherlands

Will Wilson Dean eventually be of el standard? Good pl standard? What are the thoughts of those who've watched him? great to have a kiwi racing in the UK again.