waiheke1

Pretty sure Sid meant that Darcy was nailed on for one of the four wildcards for 2016, so now there is an extra one up for grabs for the other riders.

Always good to hear your thoughts norbold I'd be tempted to have tai at 4th on your world champ list. If he wins this year would have to be top 3, and maybe number one. Hard to disagree with your nearly men - jessup I think had a better record in individual events than simmo, but Simmons much the better record in team/pairs events. Carter close to making your top 5?

Didn't philtheace state on here that zagar gave back his match fee for that fixture because of how he had ridden?

Aces fan, but really couldn't care less now who makes it. Would happily miss out on a play off spot and see poole win it in exchange for some good news re Darcy.

Thanks Rob didn't know that. Let's whack him and Forrest into the line up then instead of Kennet and Lawson?

The current el sides will have big crowd drops with those line ups. The pl sides won't get a big enough boost to pay for number ones. People who criticize the el say it has too many mismatched races and is overpriced. These changes would result in huge mis matches in heats and can't see prices dropping more than a quid. Big no from me

In terms of meeting the "nearly" criteria I guess only Forrest meets that criteria? Unless there is background I don't know re the other two s best world final finishes.That said both could be decent shouts if the criteria were relaxed.

Edited to add if you're changing the criteria in such a way you'd also be including a number of pre war and war era riders as well

Tbh Sid they only made the 16 as that is how many "nearly" Brits there are. If it was a list of top 20 Brits not to win the title neither of them (nor some others such as les Collins) would be on it

Even if simmo had beaten pc, pc could still have claimed a run off by beating mauger, rather than being able to settle for second. And of course if mauger hadn't had an engine failure maybe he would have beaten them both to the title. Simmo came close sure, but that's why I emphasised not THAT close. I'd consider riders who missed out in a run off, jessup in 78 or Carter (and even l Collins) in 82 as being closer. Where would Simmons come in a meeting of "nearly Brits". I'd have split, Parker and jessup as the top 3, with simmo and Carter as the strongest other candidates. Add Louis x2, wigg, Tatum, Langton, crutcher, green,l Collins, Doncaster, kennett and Lawson to make up the field. Of course there are stronger Brits (boococks Morton) not in that list but who weren't really nearly men

That's the beauty of threads like this, they'd be pretty boring if there were only 16 names and we all agreed who was the best if them So perhaps Warren should be in the 16 ahead of nilsen/Sanders, have to admit I didn't know a lot about Warren

Twk - my point was I don't think simmo would ever have finished 2nd under a gp format. That would have meant finishing ahead of three of Olsen mauger Collins and michanek and can't think of a year he would have done that. Tmc argues for 77 but in my view that would be undoubtedly a pc/Olsen 1-2

Yeah, I was leaning that way but he did finish 2nd in a gp series which I'm not sure Simmons Sanders or autrey would have managed.

Who would you leave out for Kennet though? Plenty of riders who finished on the podium not in the 16 listed here,Kennet would be towards the bottom of my list. Sid - fair call re autrey, but who do you leave out? Maybe ahead of nilsen, Sanders or Simmons?

Although the OP hasn’t made it explicit, it seems the criteria for inclusion are non wolrd champions who either a) having finished on the podium or came close to winning the title without finishing on the poidium (e.g. Carter). That criteria rules out a number of riders who appear on conventional “best ever not to win the title" lists, excluding the likes of Farndon, Duggan etc from no-worlrd championship eras and also the likes of Chris Morton, who was world class without ever producing the good son world final nights. I’ll make three changes to the OPs list of 16 – bringing in Jack Parker, Denis Sigalos and Malcom Simmons for Scott Autrey, Sjosten and Bernt Persson. To run through the field: Leigh Adams: The sort of rider that had he not won a world title under the old format we would have said “would have been a world champ for sure under a GP series.” Truly quality rider, perhaps doubt as to whether he was hard enough to win a one –off title Jessup: His world final record of one silver doesn’t do him justice, famously missing out on possibly a world title (certainly a rostrum spoot) due tio engine failure in 78, and again a podium spot in 81m due to engine failures. Bad luck – possibly not, more evidence that mechanical preparation is needed to become world champ. Under a GP system he would have been a near certainty for the title in 1980, ao while often derided as a “gating tart” I think he’s one of the leading contenders in this field Plechanov: the only rider to be runner up two consecutive years without lifting the title. Well before my time, but clearly one of the class riders of the field Plech: If this meeting were to be held in Poland he would be one of the hot favourites, otherwise I could see only a lower table finish despite his quality. Emil: Unsure why the OP labels him a controversial inclusion. GP medalist as a teenager. Locked in a dramatic two way battle for the title a couple of seasons later, only to be denied at least silver by injury. The most talented rider in the field Nilsen: Managed a silver in the GP system. As well as being just off the podium in both eworld final and GP formats. You don’t achieve that without being very very good, but not a rider I consider to be quite world champion quality. Split Waterman: Like Plechanov before my time, but one of two double silver medalists in the field, has to be a favourite Kenny Carter: Three world finals, at the half way mark was never lower than second. Of course what followed was an engine failure at wembley, THAT incident in 82, and a disappointing tail off in 83. Would have been a hot favourite in the 85 world final but for a broken leg in the final qualifying meeting. Probably second best rider in the world in 81-82, would have been a certyainty for minimum silver medal under a gP system in 82. Only rider in the field not to win a medal, but certainly one of the best riders in the field if he can avoid imploding after the interval. Hampel: Like Jessup often unfairly derided as a gating tart. Like Adams, a rider who you would have thought ideally suited to GPs given his domestic record. Has an excellent GP record over the last few years, and would have been better if not for injury. If this was to be run over a GP format I’d tip him as a medalist, but in a world final basis I have my doubts. Shaun Moran: One of my favourite riders of all time, quite capable of winning the thing or finishing last. Hiw world final record realy doesn’t do justice to his talent, his record in the inter-conitninental final – along with the BLRC arguably the two meetings with the strongest line ups in that era-is testament to that. Malcolm Simmons: A top top rider, as his record in the world pairs indicates. That said, never THAT close to being a world champ, and under a GP format I’m not sure he would have even managed a silver. Well worthy of a place in this field though. Billy sanders: Had an excellent record in world finals, really raising himself on the big night (with the exception of 84). But never got genuinely close to being world champ, one of the weaker riders in the field IMHO. Tommy Knudsen: Scintillating third on debut as 1 year old testament to his talent, involved in one of the most famous Wembley races of all time with Penhall. though admittedly he would likely have missed out on a podium spot but for engine difficulties suffered by Carter/Gundersen/ Jessup. Then of course was dnied a possible world title after THAT clash with Hans in 86. Career was sadly hampered by injuries. One of the most naturally talented riders in the field. Dennis Sigalos: Included perhaps more on potential than actual achievements. Made only two finals, finishing third on debut in 82 would likely have finished off the podium but for the Penhall/KC clash) and disappointingly down the field in 83. However was one of the top three riders in the world in 82, 83 and at the time of his career ending injury in 84. Could well have been world champion but for that injury. Bengt Jansson: world class record, denied a world title only by a lost run off against Fundin. Soren Sjosten: very good world final record, without ever getting really close to being world champ: Jack Parker: Well before my time, but as an Aces fan he was always talked about as the greatest never to win it. Omissions (including those men tioned by others as possible): Persson – the only rider omitted who missed out on a title by run off, but there's certainly an argument he shouldn’t have been on the podium, rather should have been excluded earlier in the meet for knocking Briggs off. Soren Sjosten: very good world final record, without ever getting really close to being world champ: Autrey: Two world finals, one podium finish, a quality rider who may have pushed for a medal in GPs in the late 70s. Ward: His last two GPs seasons he has been set well placed for a medal before his seasons being prematurely ended. A huge natural talent, but not sure he has yet got close enough to a title to be considered a “nearly man” Les Collins: Produced three world class pefromances (80 BLRC, 82 IC and world final) in his career, but was otherwise an international class rather than world class performer. Tbh would rate him behind the likes of Louis x2, Wigg, Tatum etc. even if he did get closer (one poor ride and bad luck with the carter crash) to being world champ than any of them. Phil Crump: Could have been world champ in 75 under a GP system, albeit due to his superior machinery. A rider of his quality though ha da poor world final record. Brian Crutcher: Managed one rostrum spot on his home track, given that all his world finals were at wembley (his home track for all bar one of those seasons), not convinced he warrants a spot ahead of any of those included. My picks: Emil to win, Plechanov second, Split third. Jessup missing out due to engine problems, Carter leading at the interval only for disaster to hit in his fourth ride. surely Split Waterman to be the favourite in that one? I'll go a top three of Split, Jack Parker and Dave Jessup.

tbf to Sid, the discussion is who was better, not who achieved the most. Most would base who was better primarily on achievements, but its reasonable to take other aspects into account, and to take achievements beyond individual world titles into account.

Thought a speedway journalist of your repute would be aware that both price and Milne did win the world championship?

That's an opinion not a fact. It's an opinion strongly supported by facts, but its still an opinion.Would also disagree that Muller's title was a fluke - he was a very very good rider. Of course he wouldn't have been world champ under a gp system, and quite clearly was not as good a rider as Adams - but you do him a disservice in your post.

Excellent analysis Dave thanks. So it seems the ts was more effective at altering results (when you include drws resulting), but by far less than I suspect many if us thought. Meetings are as close then as they were now, which suggests teams in the el are slightly more equal than their old BL counterparts (who had equally close matches, but that was in part due to more frequent use if tactical). Someone stopping attending speedway due to the "unfairness" of the rule should reconsider due to the incredibly small portion of matches where the tr actually impacts on a result - about 1 in 50 matches, so you'd likely get one every two seasons attending all home meetings. Thanks again, I must say I am surprised at the findings,but good to see this analysis

How have British speedway "made him."That would be cardiff where he got one ride?

So twk - are you reconsidering your decision not to attend due to the tr. As daveallan has demonstrated that it impacts on the result of under 4% of matches. So if you attended every home match for a season, chances are u would see 0 or 1 match where the winning team was assisted by a tr ride.

Very interesting save, and closer than I thought.Would be interesting to know what the average point swing gained by using each method is, though obviously for the old ts swing can only be estimated. Similarly would be interesting in how many meetings where a side win after using a ts/tr the result was changed by the use of it (I.e. winning margin lower than swing gained) And final thought is what is the average margin of victory in all meetings? I suspect el sides are more closely matched now than in the past (top sides weaker and bottom sides stronger) and wonder if that is why the old ts didn't result in more result swings Thanks for the analysis daveallan

Maybe he was just demonstrating what Greg should have done to Nicki, rather than bailing out and then taking retaliatory action?

Yes. Bwitchers question is what caused tai to make the gesture? Was it simply that he felt kk had tried to run him into the fence, or was there a historic reason for it? Tai doesn't normally make such gestures after overtaking

Garrity to ride, narrow home win I reckon.