tyler42

I have to agree with you there. I'm sure I saw Joe Owen and Rod Hunter score nearly all of Newcastle's points at Weymouth in 82 or 83. I think Joe got a 21 max and Hunter weren't that far behind. Keep it quite but, bwitchers 'm' word would definitely apply for that meeting!

Would that be the same Boston who beat Hackney in the 1975 Inter-League Knockout Cup. Who themselves had a poor season but, not as bad as Swindon!

I agree but, would you not agree that riders like the one's I listed were riding in a much higher standard of racing in BL then compared to the EL what Lawson ride's in today? If so, does that then not make the likes of Cross and Tatum and Miller even more Impressive.

I would say some decent riders here. Take your pick. 1984 averages Simon Cross 7.41 1984, Alan Graham 7.98, Steve Bastable 6.89 , Gary Guglielmi 7.79 Rick Miller KelvinTatum 7.18

My first post on this Thread I have to disagree. Yes there were journeyman but, you also had up and coming young riders, English as well as Australians who went on to being world class and in some cases World Champions. i.e Havlock, Loram. The likes of Adams, Boyce, Wiltshire, Dugard. I could go on and on and all from the same era. All these riders started out in the National League. Can you name as many who or will go on to be World Class Today?. When a PL rider can score as many points in the Elite League as he can in the PL does that make him a better rider or is it that the Elite league has never been so weak? A top 2nd division rider back in the day would be lucky if he could score a couple of points! In the 1st division and that was at reserve. Then again he would be up against the likes Collins, Penhall, Lee, Moran Bros etc etc!. A little bit harder Imo Than the likes of Lingrern, Harris, King, AJ and a whole host of DU PL. Fair enough I went from Adams, Boyce, Dugard etc to Collins, Lee Penhall etc But, It was not about when Mike Lee rode in the league. It was about the League in General and my post constantly quoted the late 80's when the riders I mentioned above rode. so what you saying is If, the EL was like the BL Richard Lawson would have an 8 point average. Ok lets look at some of riders from BL 89 Chris Morton 6.75 Paul Thorpe 7.79 Rick Miller 6.93 Simon Wigg 7.69 Ronny Correy 7.86 None of these riders attained an average of 8 so Richard Lawson must be a better rider than them. Really!!

The reason why so many PL riders ride in the EL, as we both know is a money saving excise. unfortunately speedway in Britain has fallen to such a low standard that it has to use PL riders to fill the numbers not because how good these riders are. Yes you are quite correct in that imo the PL from what I have seen on TV Is far more exciting to watch. It's just a shame that PL riders riding in the EL are not there because they are too good for the PL but, a necessity to prop up the EL.

At last so we both agree The Premier League of today is no better than The National League back then, as by your definition It is the 2nd tier and that riders are at best average standard? and I would say quite a few journeymen to boot.

Sorry but why are all of a sudden quoting 70's/early 80's The National league went right up to 1990. Then in 91 it reverted back to British league division 2. It's certainly not complicated but, you seem to be making a good job of doing so.

Sorry but. you have seemed to have changed the goal posts. I have nearly, in all my posts mentioned riders from the late 80's I even put a video up this morning to counter you video of the early 80's. So please don't tell me what period we are discussing. I think you will find in 88 only 2 riders were foreign. Both actually riding for Rye House and It was still the National League not the modern era.

I don't think we are going to resolve this debate one way or another. It's all about opinions. I have mine you have yours. At the end of the day They are opinions not fact. I'm certainly not getting worked up. As for other posters giving factual evidence to back up your case. Impossible to do.Just like me and you, they can only give there opinion. I think to be fair to my side of the argument, I have quoted riders mainly from the late 80's and imo It was a tough league then and not a league full of journeyman.

Sorry, Cry and Whinge. What are you on about. I could say the same about you because, Let's face it you only seem to answer half my questions! Funny enough the one's what suit your side of the argument. As for a debate you wouldn't know one if it came up and smacked you round the head.

Sorry to disappoint you but, no they did not ride in the NL. They rode in the second half's and junior leagues. Surely you must remember the Swindon sprockets of the early 80's. Steve Bishop, Dave Smart to name a couple who, went on to be good riders, Maybe in your opinion, they might have been just good national league riders in today NL?

I think in the context of your post it does. 'While heat 2 is comedy It's MDL level!' I was trying to show that the standard of that meeting would be imo on par with the standard of a MDL meeting. i.e Riders learning to ride bikes. Riders of that standard in the Weymouth days would have been riding in the second half not in the main meeting. I think as others have said we could go on for ages showing different examples. which we both must agree is quite pointless. The post that really started this debate was 'You keep saying this.. the 'mega tough' old NL. What was mega tough about it? It was a league full of journeyman. The current PL is stronger.' Which was not just imo derogatory of the old NL Imo but also suggested so many fantastic riders from that era were Journeyman.

I think its easy to pick out random meetings. How about this one from Poole V Hackney in 1988 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ5SAl2VCZM While heat 2 is comedy It's MDL level! Really, I would like to see PL riders of today try to ride a track with that amount of dirt. Now that would be funny. Half can't ride a slick track as proved last week at Berwick What like this one. I only watched heat 1. What standard of speedway is that? Now that is a comedy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBzVPHgZ6NQ I've seen a better standard of riding at Hackney training school on a Saturday afternoon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jOdXtwSrlw

I thought by adding the smiley, You would have known my answer was tongue in cheek. To be fair you did not say whilst riding at reserve in you original question. I like you don' know the answer either. At the end of the day we all have our own opinions and that's why this forum is fantastic. I was lucky to watch speedway both 1st and 2nd division speedway in the 70's, 80's, 90's and early 2000's. In my rose tinted glasses one of my favourite meetings of the season was the National League Riders Final at Wimbledon Packed to the rafters with an atmosphere second to none. Now a question for you. I think it very sad to see a British Speedway Final with 13 PL riders. Now in your view does that mean The Pl of today has to be of a much higher standard than from yesteryear or that the standard of British riders is the lowest it has ever been? Maybe they should omit Woffindon, Harris and Nicholls and call it the PLRC The nearest I get to a speedway meeting nowadays is in front of the TV. So maybe I'm not entitled to have a say but, In my opinion the PL Is a better product then the EL but does that make it a better standard? I would say no but, that once again is only my own opinion and not fact. The plan of the BSPA a few years ago was to bring both leagues closer in terms of standard and to save money. You only have to look at the number of PL DU Riders riding in the EL To see that in a way they have achieved what they set out to do. Sorry, of course he made his debut for Hackney in 87 in the British League

Mark Loram, Chris Louis and Leigh Adams all at one time were Reserves in the National League. Not only did they reach it, two of them won it and Loram lost a run off to Adams

Maybe more interesting would be for you to name the amount second strings and reserves in the current PL who are not journeymen. That should be quite easy as there's only 13 teams. I might add how many of the said journeyman are foreign? Now that's the question that needs to be answered. Not by you but those who are in charge. No wonder no young English riders coming through. Robert Lambert started out in Germany and Tai Raced with all the good young Aussie's in Australia when he started out.

So would you say it's a utter myth the the current 1st division is the weakest it has been for 50 years. The current EL boasts 6 world class riders, soon to be 7. Then you have DU riders and as for the reserves. even the poor ones back then would match the money saving farce FTR of today. it's the equivalent of putting second half riders in your team back in the day. Only back then they would not be beating riders in the main body of the team!.

'They would have been. Yes.' That is your opinion. Not fact 'regarding Yeates. Having no trouble getting double figures from 5 rides (including a heat 15) gives him an 8 point average minimum. So, yes, you are saying he's as good as them.' You are putting words in my mouth. Where have I said Yates was better than them. You have picked three of the best riders in the league for your argument. 'I would agree that nowadays these would be high up in the list of British riders due mainly to this not being such a good period for British riders, but you,re basing the strength of an entire league based on a select few riders who really shouldn't have stayed there because they were too good for it.' I would argue and say,they weren't too good for that league. The 1st division was a lot stronger then. Three world class heat leaders solid second strings, not double uppers and 2 reserves not FTR just to save money. so moving up meant you had to be pretty good. 'I think it shows that the standard in the top league has dropped and the standard in the second tier has become stronger.' Aren't you contradicting yourself , when you saying a few selected riders should't have stayed in the NL? I could name more than just a few who progressed from the NL to become top riders and this in my opinion is reason why it's not been a good period for British riders, because the PL is weaker now than what it was back then. ​Of course it's only my opinion not fact. It's nice to have a debate and no doubt this will be argued in another ten or twenty years, when hopefully we will still have speedway to debate about .

I did not say he would be as good as Ward, Janowski and Iversen but the standard of the EL is so poor Imo he would have no trouble getting double figures. Let's put it another way, do you think Ben Barker, Simon Stead, Richard Lawson to name but a few would have been out and out No1's in the NL when Yates was riding for Weymouth? As for saying Schofield, Yates the Owen bros were just decent riders. that is open to debate, but imo there's not a lot of English riders the PL who could hold a candle to any of them! No I think it shows how low the standard of speedway in this country has become..

I think we are going round in circles here. No one is disputing The PL is a good league but, for you to name Ben Barker and Danny King?. How long have Barker and King been riding? Surely they must be in, your criteria journeyman? Both have ridden in the top flight (How anyone can call it top flight I'll never know) Both are now in the PL Both late 20's. I did say barring Robert Lambert, but yes I do agree with you on the 3 Aussie's Even though Masters and Morris have been riding a few seasons. Wiltishire, Boyce and Adams. all with in a few of years of riding in the NL were in world finals. Wiltshire 2nd, Boyce 3rd. Havelock and Crump were a product of the National league And sadly you have to include Danish riders to make up your list. What's more unfortunate is the number of foreign riders in the PL who can't even average 5.00. Could that be why English riders are not making it to the top? One last thing. How many genuine English riders are there in the EL? Because after watching the recent British Final, 14 of the riders were Double uppers. How times change, Peter Collins 1 British Championship to his name. Scott Nicholls 7 Chris Harris 3. Next your be telling me these two were far better than Collins!

The fact is you stated the the PL is stronger now than it was back when it was the National league. Can you please tell me barring Robert Lambert. Who in the top 20 do you think will go on to bigger and better things? I would also say there are plenty of journeyman in the PL today. The sad thing though is they are mostly Foreign! At least back in the day they were English. As for saying Woffinden, Holder ward is not irrelevant on the contrary, If you can't grasp that you have only named three riders plus NP. Does that not say there's not been much in the way of talent coming through from the PL.

Maybe I'm wrong but, I can't see how I'm being contradictory. 3 recent PL riders Woffinden, Holder and Ward. Yes without doubt 3 world class riders, 2 world champions. No one can argue with that. Then you go back a few years to NP. You said in your post The PL of today. So what era from the NL would you like me to name riders who rode in the national League and then went on to ride in world finals etc. For example take Martin Yates No1 at Weymouth early 80's NL. Can you honestly say at the same time He could have been No1 at Swindon? I think we both would agree the answer would be no. I would say If he were riding today, he would have no trouble scoring double figures In the EL.