tyler42

I thought by adding the smiley, You would have known my answer was tongue in cheek. To be fair you did not say whilst riding at reserve in you original question. I like you don' know the answer either. At the end of the day we all have our own opinions and that's why this forum is fantastic. I was lucky to watch speedway both 1st and 2nd division speedway in the 70's, 80's, 90's and early 2000's. In my rose tinted glasses one of my favourite meetings of the season was the National League Riders Final at Wimbledon Packed to the rafters with an atmosphere second to none. Now a question for you. I think it very sad to see a British Speedway Final with 13 PL riders. Now in your view does that mean The Pl of today has to be of a much higher standard than from yesteryear or that the standard of British riders is the lowest it has ever been? Maybe they should omit Woffindon, Harris and Nicholls and call it the PLRC The nearest I get to a speedway meeting nowadays is in front of the TV. So maybe I'm not entitled to have a say but, In my opinion the PL Is a better product then the EL but does that make it a better standard? I would say no but, that once again is only my own opinion and not fact. The plan of the BSPA a few years ago was to bring both leagues closer in terms of standard and to save money. You only have to look at the number of PL DU Riders riding in the EL To see that in a way they have achieved what they set out to do. Sorry, of course he made his debut for Hackney in 87 in the British League

Mark Loram, Chris Louis and Leigh Adams all at one time were Reserves in the National League. Not only did they reach it, two of them won it and Loram lost a run off to Adams

Maybe more interesting would be for you to name the amount second strings and reserves in the current PL who are not journeymen. That should be quite easy as there's only 13 teams. I might add how many of the said journeyman are foreign? Now that's the question that needs to be answered. Not by you but those who are in charge. No wonder no young English riders coming through. Robert Lambert started out in Germany and Tai Raced with all the good young Aussie's in Australia when he started out.

So would you say it's a utter myth the the current 1st division is the weakest it has been for 50 years. The current EL boasts 6 world class riders, soon to be 7. Then you have DU riders and as for the reserves. even the poor ones back then would match the money saving farce FTR of today. it's the equivalent of putting second half riders in your team back in the day. Only back then they would not be beating riders in the main body of the team!.

'They would have been. Yes.' That is your opinion. Not fact 'regarding Yeates. Having no trouble getting double figures from 5 rides (including a heat 15) gives him an 8 point average minimum. So, yes, you are saying he's as good as them.' You are putting words in my mouth. Where have I said Yates was better than them. You have picked three of the best riders in the league for your argument. 'I would agree that nowadays these would be high up in the list of British riders due mainly to this not being such a good period for British riders, but you,re basing the strength of an entire league based on a select few riders who really shouldn't have stayed there because they were too good for it.' I would argue and say,they weren't too good for that league. The 1st division was a lot stronger then. Three world class heat leaders solid second strings, not double uppers and 2 reserves not FTR just to save money. so moving up meant you had to be pretty good. 'I think it shows that the standard in the top league has dropped and the standard in the second tier has become stronger.' Aren't you contradicting yourself , when you saying a few selected riders should't have stayed in the NL? I could name more than just a few who progressed from the NL to become top riders and this in my opinion is reason why it's not been a good period for British riders, because the PL is weaker now than what it was back then. ​Of course it's only my opinion not fact. It's nice to have a debate and no doubt this will be argued in another ten or twenty years, when hopefully we will still have speedway to debate about .

I did not say he would be as good as Ward, Janowski and Iversen but the standard of the EL is so poor Imo he would have no trouble getting double figures. Let's put it another way, do you think Ben Barker, Simon Stead, Richard Lawson to name but a few would have been out and out No1's in the NL when Yates was riding for Weymouth? As for saying Schofield, Yates the Owen bros were just decent riders. that is open to debate, but imo there's not a lot of English riders the PL who could hold a candle to any of them! No I think it shows how low the standard of speedway in this country has become..

I think we are going round in circles here. No one is disputing The PL is a good league but, for you to name Ben Barker and Danny King?. How long have Barker and King been riding? Surely they must be in, your criteria journeyman? Both have ridden in the top flight (How anyone can call it top flight I'll never know) Both are now in the PL Both late 20's. I did say barring Robert Lambert, but yes I do agree with you on the 3 Aussie's Even though Masters and Morris have been riding a few seasons. Wiltishire, Boyce and Adams. all with in a few of years of riding in the NL were in world finals. Wiltshire 2nd, Boyce 3rd. Havelock and Crump were a product of the National league And sadly you have to include Danish riders to make up your list. What's more unfortunate is the number of foreign riders in the PL who can't even average 5.00. Could that be why English riders are not making it to the top? One last thing. How many genuine English riders are there in the EL? Because after watching the recent British Final, 14 of the riders were Double uppers. How times change, Peter Collins 1 British Championship to his name. Scott Nicholls 7 Chris Harris 3. Next your be telling me these two were far better than Collins!

The fact is you stated the the PL is stronger now than it was back when it was the National league. Can you please tell me barring Robert Lambert. Who in the top 20 do you think will go on to bigger and better things? I would also say there are plenty of journeyman in the PL today. The sad thing though is they are mostly Foreign! At least back in the day they were English. As for saying Woffinden, Holder ward is not irrelevant on the contrary, If you can't grasp that you have only named three riders plus NP. Does that not say there's not been much in the way of talent coming through from the PL.

Maybe I'm wrong but, I can't see how I'm being contradictory. 3 recent PL riders Woffinden, Holder and Ward. Yes without doubt 3 world class riders, 2 world champions. No one can argue with that. Then you go back a few years to NP. You said in your post The PL of today. So what era from the NL would you like me to name riders who rode in the national League and then went on to ride in world finals etc. For example take Martin Yates No1 at Weymouth early 80's NL. Can you honestly say at the same time He could have been No1 at Swindon? I think we both would agree the answer would be no. I would say If he were riding today, he would have no trouble scoring double figures In the EL.

I have to disagree. Yes there were journeyman but, you also had up and coming young riders, English as well as Australians who went on to being world class and in some cases World Champions. i.e Havlock, Loram. The likes of Adams, Boyce, Wiltshire, Dugard. I could go on and on and all from the same era. All these riders started out in the National League. Can you name as many who or will go on to be World Class Today?. When a PL rider can score as many points in the Elite League as he can in the PL does that make him a better rider or is it that the Elite league has never been so weak? A top 2nd division rider back in the day would be lucky if he could score a couple of points! In the 1st division and that was at reserve. Then again he would be up against the likes Collins, Penhall, Lee, Moran Bros etc etc!. A little bit harder Imo Than the likes of Lingrern, Harris, King, AJ and a whole host of DU PL riders.

So the two commentators thought Watt and Newman were favourites over Lambert? So in there eyes Lambert had it all to do to beat Newman who came last in heat 2 lol

Smashing, Super. Tatum certainly loves them words tonight lol

So the starting gate is not going up properly. Everyone can see that, but the ref is quite happy to let the result stand. That and his decision in heat one. He is a clown of the highest order!

I have to agree with you sidney, I was not a fan and he did rely on his gating most of the times, but he did a lot of winning, when for me it was a tough era. He also made the WTC Team on a few occasions when we had world class performers in Collins,Simmo,Jessup,Lee,Kennett. of todays riders, only Woffinden IMO would get a sniff of getting in that team

If your talking about John Davis. I think your being a tad hard. He was an outright No1 at Reading. He made two world finals. He also won The Daily Express Spring Classic and The Laurels. That was when those meetings had World Class line ups.

What a joke to have this guy Jack doing the commentary. Go back to your super bikes. Please Eurosport get rid

Was he not a reserve?

Imo Riding in the Australian Championship over 3 rounds is a bit different to riding in a 12 round GP Series. I think as others have said, If Darcy stays fit, he could go on and win it for a few years to come.

Spot on, There's no British rider at this present time other than Bomber who could match any of these riders credentials. If a second Brit was awarded a wildcard above any of these riders, It would make the sport look a farce. Bomber has now qualified on merit. Its taken him four attempts and you could say, If he was from any other country bar GB he would not have got the chance. Its about time riders who get a pick can add to the series rather than being in it just because of there nationality.

Its great to see Bomber come of age in the GP's and a Brit who is there on merit, Well done Bomber.

No he did not qualify, but who do you think should have a pick in front of him? As already said 2 GP finals, Polish champion, very high up in both Swedish and Polish league averages and would i think bring something to the series. Would not think he would be there just to make up the numbers.

If you go back to the 80's. There were two leagues British and New national league with regional juinor leagues. they were mainly I think three man teams. the main differnce, was back then you did not have riders who did not make the grade in the national league drop back down to the junior leagues. Theres to many riders who have been in the premier league and who have been around for years dropping down and riding in the national league. Fair enough if this is what the national league promoters want. It use to be, second half onto juinor league and then 1st team if you made the grade. I don't think there were many riders who once making there league debut would drop back down to being a junior. As for Aussies there were plenty back then and they had to go through the same system. As the saying goes if your good enough, you will make it. Regarding the premier its a different kettle of fish, Yes there are to many foreign riders who are not good enough, but the promoters are the only ones to blame, as it is them that offer them the contracts.

Great post