tyler42

No mention from Nige or Kelv about Pedersen not clearing the track!!

But if he does finish 15th. It certainly does not make him the 15th best rider in the world! No disrespect to bomber, but he can't even get a ride in Poland's 2nd League. I think you yourself do stats on all the riders. Where does bomber come there. not top 15 I would guess.

My own personal opinion as to when it stopped being as good as it use to be. Was when most of the teams would be made up of guests, R/R. Yes I know back in the day There were guests and R/R, but when the likes of Belle Vue came to Wimbledon, You would know unless injured that P.C Chris Morton Les Collins etc would be riding and The Dons would have the same team as they had the week before and the week before that. Now you have so many riders from the premier league doubling up and that in my opinion is purely down to not having enough top class riders in the Elite league. You could argue and say back then the top riders were not riding Poland Sundays, Sweden Tuesdays and so on. Maybe that is why there is a lack of top riders riding here now. If you take the standard of our league racing today and put it up against 70s and 80s. I think no one who has seen both eras could say today's standard is better. The racing on the other hand is no better or worse than it was then. You still get fantastic racing today as you did then. Just without the crowds! Ironically the sport in my opinion has gone full circle in that, Poland was the poor relation to us, but now sadly it is us. you only have to look at our rider input on the world stage bar Tai Wooffinden. we are no where. Things are starting to look up, with a lot of promising youngsters, but if you let them just stagnate in the lower leagues, then when they come up against the young Polish, Danish and Swedish riders, they will be found wanting.

And to think, we had riders of Gordon Kennetts quality 2nd in the 1978 World Final, threatening to take out a Danish licence because he could not get into the English Team.

This though is where the problem lies with the laydown bikes. On more than one occasion I have read they are not suited to tracks where there is a lot of dirt. You look at most meetings in this day and age. The riders come in from heat 1 with hardly any shale on there suits. The tracks are setup slick as this is what most riders want. We've seen, when the tracks are a tad heavy. The riders what all the dirt scrapped off. I agree we you, there is no point going back in time. Speedway today is a totally different sport to when the upright was used. I loved speedway in the late 70's and 80's. That was my era, but the world moves on as does speedway.

Maybe Bomber can handle the pressure better than these so called better riders in a one off old fashion 20 heat meeting. He's there on merit. Good luck for next years GP's Bomber.

Maybe the ref was trying to even it up. Like they do in football.

We certainly do but, unfortunately the majority of them ride in the Polish and Swedish Leagues.

Taken from his Wikipedia page. I assume it is correct. Maybe not? I'm not sure. Lee began his professional speedway career in 1975 with Boston in the second division of speedway in the United Kingdom, the National League. In his first season he recorded an impressive average points score of 9.13, he also rode part-time for top division team King's Lynn

I think this is open to debate. Back in 88/ 89 'Yes I know I'm only picking certain years ' You had a fair few Aussies. Who showed tremendous talent in there 1st season of racing. i.e Todd Wiltshire,Craig Boyce, Leigh Adams. With in Todd's case 2nd in the 1990 world Final. 88 No 7 for Wimbledon NL, On the rostrum within 2 years. This with the Likes of Loram, Dugard, Chris Louis made for a very competitive League. Good foreigner riders yes will make the league better, just like the Aussies back then but, imo there are a lot of very average foreign riders riding here at the expense of young English riders. Hence Imo why we as a nation lack top quality riders Excluding Woffindon and Lambert of course.

Yes you are quite correct that, he rode for Boston and Kings Lynn but, did he not make his league début for Boston I must apologise, I did not realise it was a joke.

Really what League did Michael Lee ride in? World Champion at 22? and consider by some to have been the most naturally gifted rider. So that must prove you 'PL is Better' wrong Unless your saying World Finals were a lot easer than GP's back then? What years are you talking about?

I have to agree with you there. I'm sure I saw Joe Owen and Rod Hunter score nearly all of Newcastle's points at Weymouth in 82 or 83. I think Joe got a 21 max and Hunter weren't that far behind. Keep it quite but, bwitchers 'm' word would definitely apply for that meeting!

Would that be the same Boston who beat Hackney in the 1975 Inter-League Knockout Cup. Who themselves had a poor season but, not as bad as Swindon!

I agree but, would you not agree that riders like the one's I listed were riding in a much higher standard of racing in BL then compared to the EL what Lawson ride's in today? If so, does that then not make the likes of Cross and Tatum and Miller even more Impressive.

I would say some decent riders here. Take your pick. 1984 averages Simon Cross 7.41 1984, Alan Graham 7.98, Steve Bastable 6.89 , Gary Guglielmi 7.79 Rick Miller KelvinTatum 7.18

My first post on this Thread I have to disagree. Yes there were journeyman but, you also had up and coming young riders, English as well as Australians who went on to being world class and in some cases World Champions. i.e Havlock, Loram. The likes of Adams, Boyce, Wiltshire, Dugard. I could go on and on and all from the same era. All these riders started out in the National League. Can you name as many who or will go on to be World Class Today?. When a PL rider can score as many points in the Elite League as he can in the PL does that make him a better rider or is it that the Elite league has never been so weak? A top 2nd division rider back in the day would be lucky if he could score a couple of points! In the 1st division and that was at reserve. Then again he would be up against the likes Collins, Penhall, Lee, Moran Bros etc etc!. A little bit harder Imo Than the likes of Lingrern, Harris, King, AJ and a whole host of DU PL. Fair enough I went from Adams, Boyce, Dugard etc to Collins, Lee Penhall etc But, It was not about when Mike Lee rode in the league. It was about the League in General and my post constantly quoted the late 80's when the riders I mentioned above rode. so what you saying is If, the EL was like the BL Richard Lawson would have an 8 point average. Ok lets look at some of riders from BL 89 Chris Morton 6.75 Paul Thorpe 7.79 Rick Miller 6.93 Simon Wigg 7.69 Ronny Correy 7.86 None of these riders attained an average of 8 so Richard Lawson must be a better rider than them. Really!!

The reason why so many PL riders ride in the EL, as we both know is a money saving excise. unfortunately speedway in Britain has fallen to such a low standard that it has to use PL riders to fill the numbers not because how good these riders are. Yes you are quite correct in that imo the PL from what I have seen on TV Is far more exciting to watch. It's just a shame that PL riders riding in the EL are not there because they are too good for the PL but, a necessity to prop up the EL.

At last so we both agree The Premier League of today is no better than The National League back then, as by your definition It is the 2nd tier and that riders are at best average standard? and I would say quite a few journeymen to boot.

Sorry but why are all of a sudden quoting 70's/early 80's The National league went right up to 1990. Then in 91 it reverted back to British league division 2. It's certainly not complicated but, you seem to be making a good job of doing so.

Sorry but. you have seemed to have changed the goal posts. I have nearly, in all my posts mentioned riders from the late 80's I even put a video up this morning to counter you video of the early 80's. So please don't tell me what period we are discussing. I think you will find in 88 only 2 riders were foreign. Both actually riding for Rye House and It was still the National League not the modern era.

I don't think we are going to resolve this debate one way or another. It's all about opinions. I have mine you have yours. At the end of the day They are opinions not fact. I'm certainly not getting worked up. As for other posters giving factual evidence to back up your case. Impossible to do.Just like me and you, they can only give there opinion. I think to be fair to my side of the argument, I have quoted riders mainly from the late 80's and imo It was a tough league then and not a league full of journeyman.

Sorry, Cry and Whinge. What are you on about. I could say the same about you because, Let's face it you only seem to answer half my questions! Funny enough the one's what suit your side of the argument. As for a debate you wouldn't know one if it came up and smacked you round the head.

Sorry to disappoint you but, no they did not ride in the NL. They rode in the second half's and junior leagues. Surely you must remember the Swindon sprockets of the early 80's. Steve Bishop, Dave Smart to name a couple who, went on to be good riders, Maybe in your opinion, they might have been just good national league riders in today NL?