Ray Stadia

In fairness, we have all gone off the main topic of the original post. There is, apparently a new speedway engine being developed which will, apparently, outlast current engines, but will cost more to buy. I personally think, speedway's survival is based around the reduction of the costs, for all those involved in speedway, including the fans. I am not sure whether this new engine is the answer. I do wonder whether British speedway would be better off breaking away from the current organisations/federations/associations and sweeping the decks and starting with a fresh set up. It has to be said that much of the growth in speedway is in the lower end of speedway, i.e. National League and leagues such as the Midland League. Perhaps we should play on that strength. And perhaps we should draw on the experience of ex riders like Dean Fenton, who, let's face it, 'has been there and done it'. Dean has seen it warts and all, but it is obvious has a passion for speedway and it's survival. There is much from the past that should be retained and sorry Mr T, the smell, in my opinion, is very important for the future!

I know it's shale now Mr T, I was merely stating yesteryear speedway! However, if you change too much, the riders will be riding in an empty stadium. Oh well, I wonder who will win the election? I have just found the following on Roger Johns' website: Lubrication The quality and quantity of oil which is used in your GM speedway engine is crucial to it's longevity. Peter Johns Racing reccommend the use of Castrol 'R' castor oil in your GM speedway engine, however whichever brand you use, be sure to keep it fresh and clean. This means changing your engine oil every 2 heats without fail... engines which do not receive this treatment result in drastically increased wear and significantly lower service intervals. Additionally, never be afraid to use the full and reccommended 850cc in any GM engine - running with any less often results in a significant reduction in the long-term performance of your engine as the valve springs (in particular the inlets) overheat and loose pressure due to a lack of oil flow to draw heat away from the spring itself. Keep the faith and keep the smell !!!! (I am saying this, not Roger!)

When you say 'lesser oil', I am not sure what you mean Mr T? As I mentioned in an earlier post, there is no real evidence, that I can see, that non smelling oil is better for the engine, than oil that does smell! Therefore, as there has always been a tradition that speedway runs on R and gives that 'special smell', shouldn't it be retained? As TWK mentioned, about his late wife, many a fan revisiting speedway after many years absence, are likely to say, 'oh yes, I remember that smell!'. They go to modern day speedway and say, 'where has the smell gone?'. Are we really saying that we need to forget the grass roots of speedway, bury the past and run with modern day speedway? Which as we know, is alive and kicking and doing very well! I agree we don't want to go back to black leathers, cinders etc, but come on, some of speedway's heritage is worth preserving, is it not?

Well there is the rub Tsunami, the promoter is the 'ringmaster'. If he thinks the fans want the smell of castor oil, he should give the fans smell! He pays the riders, the fans pay the promoter, otherwise it is the old saying 'the tail wags the dog'.

From the viewpoint Tsunami, that those involved in the sport would think, 'it is now thought that synthetic oil is best in a speedway engine', but it would appear, nobody involved in the sport has thought, 'but the fans like the smell of castor oil and that could be detrimental'. In other words, not thinking about the fans experience and what they get from the sport. By the way, I have done some research on castor versus synthetic and the jury appears to be well and truly out. One article stated that Castrol still felt Castrol R was best for methanol burning engines.

As TWK has said, it works/worked in speedway engines for decades, what has changed? I remember hearing years ago that Gary Havelock was using Mobil 1 synthetic and thought then.....here we go, the end of the intoxicating castor oil smell. I imagine and don't know for sure, the trend to use non-castor oil was based on sponsorship deals, but has now become a fashionable alternative. It is possible that 40w oil, as in Castrol R 40, is a bit thick these days for close bearing tolerances and with Nikasil bores. However, speedway engines get hot very quickly and the oil soon thins out and I know from the 'total loss' days, the oil was like water when it was discarded! It could also be thought, that with engines recirculating the oil, castor oil doesn't protect the engine as well as synthetic. If it is the recirculating issue, engine development has created an unintended consequence, to the detriment of the fans.....but then speedway probably feels..'bugger the fans'. In answer to running castor oil in my car?......BSA, I believe, recommended Castrol R for the Gold Star single cylinder engines.

Another example of speedway shooting itself in the foot. The smell of castor oil, I would contest, is a big part of the meeting experience.

Perhaps a reason why F2 doesn't appear to be popular, is due to MX engines being used. I think most speedway supporters like the current bikes, i.e. methanol running 500cc engines, with a countershaft and running on castor oil to give us that lovely smell! Perhaps F2 could be 'out of the crate' engines only, Jawa/GM, without any other alteration. However, I have heard it said that out of the crate engines are basket cases, due to poor engine build. I am not sure if this is true or myth. If we assume it is myth, F2 perhaps should be run just using these standard engines and not fettled. If we assume they are basket cases, then perhaps F2 should be limited to being fettled using the standard engine and standard components, but stripped and properly rebuilt to a better standard. In addition, F2 riders maybe should be limited to just one bike at the track, but a track spare being made available.

In my opinion 'change', doesn't mean we have to go backwards. Coloured kevlars/leathers are here to stay, shale is here to stay, colourful bikes are here to stay, 4 riders going around a track without brakes, running on methanol is here to stay. What needs to change? As Dean has suggested, the cost to the riders. As Dean has said, the biggest cost is engine purchase/tuning, followed by continued tuning. If this can be pared back, I believe it will be a big start. Next big cost, must be travelling costs for the riders, which is a varied and probably complicated issue, especially when we have so many foreign riders. However, speedway does not have to go backwards to go forwards, I believe.

It would need quite a few gallons of the stuff, but I suppose once mixed in the shale, the job is done. I wonder if it would bind up the shale? Also may make the shale very slippery and may lose it's grip qualities? But there maybe some stuff out there which could offer some real benefit and with good drainage, might be the answer!

Although, the name 'The White Knight' could be misconstrued as a euphemism!

Is this song in the charts yet?

And drainage. Probably good drainage would help a lot of tracks and I don't know if that is taken in consideration when they are built?

Been tried a few years ago using some jet engine and quickly dropped. So THEY have tried it. Fair enough. Why didn't it work? When you say a jet engine, was it directed along the track or on the track? And surely running up a jet engine is expensive? Not the same idea I had in mind, even though mine is probably hare brained! Anything can be achieved with money. I imagine, over the years, the promoters have decided that the cost to put on otherwise rained off meetings, using special equipment, is more expensive than taking the hit on a rained off meeting.

I wonder if there is a market for a machine that can go round a wet track and blow hot air onto the surface and evaporate the water, while a grader follows behind? Perhaps the grader and hot air blower could be battery powered to save diesel/petrol? I accept it might only work, if the track has time to get the machinery out. This subject is very much an old chestnut and is still to be resolved, if ever!

I am not sure what you mean TK2? The promoters pay the riders and the promoters are paid by the supporters. The riders pay demands are relative to what they need to earn, net of their costs. If the riders costs can be reduced, the net pay the rider needs is less, which is less pressure on the promoter, which in turn means less pressure on the numbers through the gate, which might mean less tracks closing, perhaps more opening and overall a more healthy sport. You could be right, it might be too late, but then it might not be.

Perhaps a head brace would help?

What was the verdict Dean?

And I agree, speedway at the amateur and bottom end, is a relatively inexpensive motor sport, which is good for those that want to start and have a bit of fun. When you get to the serious end, which is probably now, all 3 leagues, it is expensive. And which you have alluded to. I do think speedway needs to start somewhere to get the costs down, but do realise it isn't going to be easy. Dean is an experienced speedway rider and is a believer that the Jawa 2 valve might be an answer. It would be great if speedway at least looked into this possibility.

You are missing the point of the discussion TK2, with respect. Speedway in, at least, this country is struggling and probably dying on it's backside. The main issues are not enough people through the turnstiles and big expenses for the riders and the promoters. If that cost can be reduced, there might be a win for everyone and a salvation of British speedway for the future. (Why you liked his comment Tsunami is beyond me?). Speedway at the bottom end is a cheap motor sport. Speedway at the top end is very expensive, with few fans watching it!

I agree that it would have to be sensibly thought through (not speedway's strongest point, usually!). Jawa should sensibly price the engines, perhaps backed by a sponsor. If the engines were cheaper to service and were not allowed to be altered from the basic design, similar to Tsunami's sealed engine post, overall, it could be cheaper all round for the riders and would be a good test bed for the rest of speedway.

I wonder whether it is necessarily 'greed and selfishness'. Speedway is very international and for there to be a radical change in the engines used, it would need co-operation from all concerned. It would need a massive administrative initiative to achieve this. Who would be willing to take this task on? and the cost, all round, would be very high. The sensible way, would be to gently introduce a new/different engine, perhaps via the National League?

I take it Dean, the 2 valve Jawa, is basically similar to the 4 valve version, i.e.ohc etc. Would this engine be cheaper to service? And would this engine last much longer between service intervals, than a 4 valve?

I was told this many years ago now Vince and perhaps things have changed. It was on the basis, many riders changed their bikes annually for the latest model, no doubt still do and if the manufacturers charged the real price they should be charging, not many would be sold. Even then there were road bikes that were similar to Moto-X bikes, as you say, Enduro for example. The added benefit for the manufacturers then and now, must be introducing new ideas which can be tested on the track, before being introduced to road machines. Maybe speedway should be knocking on the door of our own bike manufacturer, Triumph. And didn't someone on the forum say Godden were going to start producing engines again? I am not sure if it is realised, but the JAP engine is still made, the V twin version mainly, but I understand they can still produce a single. I think the company name is Cameron.

I don't think you read my post properly, Vince, with respect, I said Moto-X bikes are developed and sold as loss leaders, based on success leads to more road bikes being sold, which have a bigger profit margin. That is what I was told. However, might be wrong, but Moto-X is also a limited market, compared to the R&D input that goes into developing the bikes.