The White Knight

I would. No Secession - No War would be a better way of putting it. As I have already said, initially Lincoln was happy for Slavery to be left alone in the Southern Slave States. It wasn't until after Antietam (1862) that he felt able to enact his Emancipation Act in 1863. Antietam, as you say was a very narrow victory but enough of a one to allow Lincoln to to bring forward his Act. That changed the complexion of the War completely. Not only did it ensure that the North was seen to be making a Crusade against Slavery, it also ensured that European Countries including Britain would/could not recognize the Confederacy. From then on - the Confederacy was doomed.

Thanks for that Ray. You made me realise that I had missed the 'E' from Shelby Foote's name. Bloody typos. :mad:

Precisely. "Immediate cause of Secession". But the War itself was caused by that Secession, not Slavery. Slavery may have been behind the argument, as you say, I still maintain though, that the War started because of the Southern States seceding from the Union - not because of Slavery. The Histories that I have read are all consistent in this - even Shelby Foote's excellent Three Volume Civil War History written from a Southern point of view. In case you think I am being blinkered here - I have also read Bruce Catton's Three Volume History too - that is written from the Northern point of view.

We had agreed. But the main issue of the War in 1861 was the Right to secede from the Union. I'll put it another way, had the South decided to stay in the Union there would have been no Civil War. Initially Lincoln wanted to Ban the spread of slavery. In those Southern States who already had it, he was prepared to allow slavery to continue. Ergo, as I said the Right to Secession was the initial cause of the War.

NO!! I will put this as simply as I can. The Confederates fought for the RIGHT of their States to secede from the Union - that is what I meant by Freedom. That is initially what the War was about. It took Lincoln's Emancipation Act to turn the Civil War in to an ante Slavery Crusade. I agree that there will be very few, if any, Black people who will have any respect for the Battle Flag but you never know. From a Historical perspective, though, that Battle Flag has as much American blood on it as any Union Flag. It is due respect.

You are talking nonsense. The Battle Flag itself is an emblem, it is representing a people who fought for the their Freedom, as they saw it, 150 years ago. An awful lot of people died for that Flag and it deserves respect for that alone whichever side of the Divide you are on, Black or White. What it has come to mean today is the problem. I agree that it should be banned, not because of the Flag itself but what that Flag has come to represent. Much as Truro Robin likes to scoff at the idea - you are right, and no amount of scoffing will change that. That doesn't make him wrong. (See above).

Ooops!!!! I will Edit. No offense meant. Edited: John Cheers.

What - about the apples? :D ................... or perhaps he likes Cider. For those of a Frog persuasion - Cidre. :rofl:

Very true - but it was not the main cause of the War. As regards the Battle Flag - I view it as just that. I have said before, a lot of people fought and died under that Flag and it should be honoured as such. The fact that White Supremacists have taken it as there own does in no way devalue what the Battle Flag means to some folk in the South. I have already stated that the flying of the Flag from Public Buildings should be banned - it is a shame but the association with Racism is etched in some people's mind these days.

In an orchard I presume. Gainful employment though - he should be applauded.

You've had a lucky escape. Believe me - I know.............................................................

They were fighting for the right to secede from the United States. For Example: States Rights. Slavery only became a major reason after Lincoln's Emancipation Bill in 1863 a whole two years after the Civil War commenced. It was seen as a watershed time in the War. Lincoln needed a victory to introduce his Emancipation Act. He got that at Antietam in 1862. See below: http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/featured_documents/emancipation_proclamation/ Further Information below regarding the Battle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antietam_National_Battlefield

I didn't know that Briggo Sponsored TRick. :shock:

Yes!! The 'Black and White Minstrels' - I thought they were great.

I see what you did there foreverblue - very clever. :rofl: I thought it was funny anyway. :rofl: Does anyone on here regard Freddie Williams as a Legend. I do.

How do you know that? He has only been caught once - that I grant you.

I believe that to be so - yes.

Loved all those things on 'Children's Hour' 1700hrs - 1800hrs. I also enjoyed 'Journey in to Space (Monday-I think) and 'Meet the Huggetts' (Tuesday 2000hrs if my memory serves me right). I also loved 'Dan Dare - Pilot of the Future' (1915hrs every weekday night) on Radio Luxemburg. Not forgetting 'Peter Brough and Archie Andrews and the 'Navy Lark' on a Sunday afternoons. Great memories norbold.

Just look at the Track Record Section on here RD. Times are getting faster.

Whey aaye man. Ya reet theor Orson lad. :D .

I've said it before and I will say it again. Too powerful Bikes (circa: 2015) for the Tracks (circa: 1928) that they are expected to Race on. I'm just waiting for the first Jet bike. :shock: I'm only half joking. If the power were reduced we would see closer Racing and less injuries. I cannot prove that - but I honestly believe it to be the case. Who knows - more exciting close Racing may even bring some Supporters back?

Fair point PW - that can drag things out a bit - followed by the regulation stop Riding because of the state of the Track - that can drag things out a bit more - and then, of course, there is the cancellation of last four Heats. Yep - you should make the 2200hrs Train.

Surely this is just piggy backing on another Thread. I don't see much point in debating the Topic twice.

Do you remember Granny Grove, Lenny Grove and I think it was Diane Grove CHR? I remember all of those. Billy Bean and his funny Machine - blimey - that brings back memories. Not forgetting Jennings and Derbyshire of course - Great stuff. Brilliant Post!!! Thank you so much for this iris123. Only thing missing - Jam Roly-Poly. Plus Custard of course.

I never met shazzybird but I felt from a couple of Posts we traded a long while ago now that she was a really nice person. I only sensed that from her Posts. I never knew that she was ill and am so very saddened by this News. My thoughts and prayers are with her Family and Friends tonight. A beautiful original Post Sandie - Thank you for that. R.I.P. + 'Shazzybird'.