norbold

It's a funny thing but no-one here can post the word Tai used. Hmmmmm, now I wonder why that is.........

Just out of interest a couple of quotes from the 1961 Speedway Star Digest's European Review: "Bulgaria. There was little activity, with Czechoslovakian and Hungarian riders carrying off the honours. Poor equipment retards progress, although promise of delivery of Czechoslovakian machines this year would do much to benefit the sport. K. Nikalov is champion." "Hungary. Pal Pereney was Hungary's leading racer, and looks to be a rider with a big future once he obtains top class equipment. Other Hungarians who did well in international events were Lapos Varos and Istvan Djaka. There are many tracks in Hungary, but lack of central organisation is retarding progress." The other countries reviewed are: Austria, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Holland, Norway, Poland, Russia, Sweden and Yugoslavia.

The war cry at Romford was "Give us a B" "B" "Give us an O" "O" ....etc.... "What have we got?" "Bombers" There was a section of the crowd near the starting gate (I think) who used to reply backwards, so, "Give us a B" "S" "Give us an O" "R"....etc...."What have we got?" "Srebmob" You had to be there...

I was going to say that! Also seeing cars with team stickers in the back window.

Well it was always said the Freddie Williams only won his two titles because he was a Wembley track specialist. Whilst I think Freddie was undoubtedly a top class rider, I think there is some truth in that and that 1950 may have been Graham Warren's year, maybe Aub Lawson or Jack Parker and 1953 would have been Jack Young's again.

Maybe that's why it never happened?

Are you larkin around? You may need to be a Londoner of a certain age to appreciate this too.

Not forgotten by us West Ham fans, Sidney!

And then there was Ivan Mauger at 17........

A great shame one of those meetings was the Riders' Championship Final. There is no doubt that Vic Duggan was the outstanding rider of 1947 but sadly missed out on the main title of the year.

Thanks BL. That's very interesting about Ronnie Moore's record as compared to Ove's. I did make a mistake about Jack Young. I was thinking of the 1961 season, not 1960, when he won the King of the South Cup, beating Fundin, Moore and Briggs and then, the following week, winning the Tom Farndon Memorial Trophy, beating Moore, Knutson, Briggs and Craven.

Yes, that is pretty much my memory except for 1964 when Bjorn Knutson frequently got the better of him.

Ove Fundin was certainly the best visiting rider at New Cross, though for a brief period towards the end of 1960, I think Jack Young was probably the best. From memory, I think I would have to go for Barry Briggs at West Ham. I'll have to look up my programmes....

Interesting stuff, BL. Out of interest as well, I looked up the Speedway Star rankings for those years and these are the British riders positions. 1960: Peter Craven 3rd, Ron How 9th, Ken McKinlay 12th, Eric Williams 20th 1961: Peter Craven 6th, Ron How 7th, Bob Andrews 11th, Ken McKinlay 12th, Mike Broadbanks(s) 16th, Cyril Maidment 19th 1962: Peter Craven 2nd, Ken McKinlay 6th, Bob Andrews 9th, Ron How 12th, Mike Broadbank(s) 18th, 1963: Peter Craven 4th, Nigel Boocock 8th, Ron How 10th 1964: Ron How 7th, Nigel Boocock 8th=, Ken McKinlay 8th= (1960 - 62 was a top 20; 1963-64 was a top 10)

All a matter of opinion of course and there is no right or wrong answer. However, the reason i would put Nigel Boocock and Ken McKinlay above Peter Craven for the 60s is because they were at the top throughout the whole decade. Of course, Peter was the better rider for the first four years, but sadly, was not to see out the decade. I always find Bob Andrews a bit of an enigma in that he seemed to do much better in individual or pairs events than as a team rider. If it had just been on individual performances I would certainly have put him in my top 10, but his averages just did not seem to reflect his personal attainments.

As a historian, your post got me thinking about even further back, Sidney, to the 1950s and 60s. So how about this for a Top 10 British from the 1950s: Peter Craven. Freddie Williams, Split Waterman, Brian Crutcher. Ken McKinlay. Arthur Forrest. Alan Hunt. Tommy Price. Cyril Roger. Eric Williams. 1960s: Nigel Boocock, Ken McKinlay, Peter Craven, Mike Broadbank(s), Eric Boocock, Ron How, David Younghusband, Martin Ashby, Trevor Hedge, Norman Hunter ?

When you look at that abundance of top British names, Sidney, all riding at the same time, it makes you weep at the "talent" we have these days!

I agree about Max Grosskreutz. I'm really not sure why he decided to retire at the end of 1936. His announcement came as a complete shock to the speedway world, coming as it did soon after he defeated Lionel Van Praag (newly crowned World Champion) in a match race. Harringay offered Belle Vue a then record transfer fee of £7000 for his services but Grosskreutz said his riding days were over and he wanted to go into management, which he did, of course, at Norwich. Though, as it turned out, his riding days weren't quite over. At Norwich, not only did he take over as a manager, but he laid a new cinder track and took over as chief coach and mechanic as well as manager and then built all the team's bikes! I've got all the average scores from Peter Jackson's excellent series of "Speedway Archives" which has the scores (and scorers) of every National League (Division One) match plus complete scores and averages for every rider who rode. I have volumes 1933-1957.. I almost agree about Sjosten, Sydney. I do rate him very highly but just not enough to think he was quite in the same class as the likes of Fundin, Briggo, Knutson, Craven, Mauger, Still two 3rd places can't be bad!

There were some truly great Belle Vue riders before the War. In a five year run from 1934-1938, they never had less than three riders in the top 10 averages. 1934: Eric Langton (2nd), Bill Kitchen (7th), Joe Abbott (9th) 1935: Max Grosskreutz (4th), Bill Kitchen (5th), Eric langton (6th) 1936: Max Grosskreutz (2nd), Eric Langton (6th), Joe Abbott (7th), Bill Kitchen (8th) 1937: Eric Langton (3rd), Bill Kitchen (5th), Joe Abbott (7th) 1938: Bill Kitchen (5th), Frank Varey (7th), Eric Langton (10th) No other team achieved that record even once during that period! I don't think I can really answer that as I have only ever been to Belle Vue once (shame!), so can't really say how Ron Johnston and Chris Morton might have compared. The reason I mentioned Ron Johnston though comes back again to my New Cross experience. The first time I saw Belle Vue there, Ron Johnston scored an 18 point maximum compared to Peter Craven's 13. He then outscored Craven every time I saw them both at New Cross. In addition, when I wrote my book, "Speedway's Classic Meetings", I featured the Norwich v. Belle Vue Britannia Shield Final 2nd Leg held at Norwich in 1957. Once again it was Johnston who proved the match winner for Belle Vue, scoring a 15 point maximum to Craven's 13. This included Johnston beating Ove Fundin on Fundin's own track of course, while Craven lost to him (and Aub Lawson). In addition to that, as OveFundinFan says, he came 5th in the World Final in my first year of speedway. So right from the beginning, I have had a very favourable impression of Ron Johnston as an outstanding rider - even better than Peter Craven in the matches I personally witnessed or studied, so I was just interested really in a Belle Vue fan's view of him.

Yes, I know he wasn't quite in the same class, but I meant as a performer on his home track. OveFundinFan was talking to me! There you go, that's what I meant. Thanks BL.

Out of interest, where would you place Ron Johnston in all this? There are also a number of pre-War riders of course like Eric Langton and Max Grosskreutz

I think it would have been a good idea to have a thread discussing the British Final. Maybe we should start one.

Funnily enough, that's just reminded me of when Ove Fundin smashed the New Cross track record in 1960, when beating Briggo in the Golden Helmet. He beat the old track record in both races. Not only did he smash the track record but he also smashed Briggo! This record also stood till New Cross closed in 1963. Finally, just to put all this in the context of my experience, the first meeting I ever went to was New Cross v. Norwich. Fundin scored an 18 point maximum and was just unstoppable, in a class of his own. I guess that has coloured my views ever since! Plus I've known him personally for about the last 15 years and he's a top bloke!

Of course, Rob, we will never know and it is all open to speculation. I am to some extent going by my own memory of the period. I was a little surprised at the time when Knutson didn't win the 1964 World title as I think he had his best years in 64 and 65. I know Briggo had had two good years back in 1957 and 58, but to me he seemed to take a slight dip after that but came back even stronger in the 64-67 period. I think my view of Peter Craven may be somewhat coloured by his performances at New Cross as he never seemed to me to really get to grips with the track and was always behind the likes of Fundin and Ronnie Moore at the Frying Pan. Though, of course, probably Briggo's worst year was the year he actually rode for New Cross as he didn't really like it either - too small! However, I was able to see Briggo at West Ham later on a track much more to his liking, but sadly, by the time West Ham opened, Craven was no longer with us. All very subjective I suppose.

Who knows indeed, Sydney. Personally, though, I don't think he would have won any more. Ove 63, Briggo 64 and 66, Bjorn 65, frankly couldn't see him beating any of those. Maybe 67 might have been his one chance as we then moved into the Mauger years. It would be interesting to know what the Norwich scores were.