norbold

So sad. One of the greatest speedway characters of all time and one of the greatest riders of all time. He was one of my heroes in the 50s and 60s. He was in the first race I ever saw.

I would agree that Lee has to be top for wasted talent. Yes, he did win the World Final once and make the podium twice more, which is, of course, pretty impressive by any standards, but, had it not been for his "other activities", I am certain we would be talking about him in discussions about greatest ever rider and he would be right up there with the likes of Fundin, Mauger and Rickardsson, perhaps even coming out no.1 on most people's all-time lists. That is a waste of talent.

Maybe because winning three World Championships in the Grand Prix era is seen as a greater achievement than winning one in the old one-off days.

They always burned Johnnie Hoskins' hat at New Cross (and every other track he promoted!)

I still have all my programmes and I too used to write comments in mine - still do, actually! I have sometimes found my comments useful when replying to questions and comments on this Forum and elsewhere. My whole collection of programmes (including comments), books and magazines were invaluable to me when I wrote my books. And again, they have proved useful in answering queries on this forum. But also I like to just peruse every now and again to remind myself about individual riders, teams or just the general history. Sadly, due to needing the space I am having to dispose of all my post 1960s Speedway Stars as I don't think I shall be writing any more speedway books, but I still have a very large collection of books and other ephemera and can't see myself disposing of them any time soon! P.S., Chunky, I still have my 1961 World Final programme!

Ernest compiled a booklet called, "The World Championship Story 1929-1961", which was published in April 1962. It gave details of all the Star Riders' Championship finals and the British and Speedway Riders' Championship as well as the World Championship. It also contains some detail on the Provincial Riders' Championship, 1936 and1960-61. There is autobiographical information on most of the leading riders and many photographs. It was my "bible" of the World Championship until Maurice Jones's book came out in 1979.

So far on this thread you have shown you have no interest in the history of the sport nor in the modern day sport. Can you explain what exactly you are doing here?

Same as me. I don't think there were any in 1958 and 1959. There was also the People's Guide 1947 to 49; Lennon's Annual 1946-7 and Astoria's 1953 to 1958.

Yes, we were posting at the same time!

You were saying....?

Try the 10th comment on the first page.

A field of great speculation of course, who would have won the War Time championships. Vic Duggan, Jack Parker, Eric Langton, Cordy Milne, Tommy Price, Eric Chitty....all arguably would have been at their peak during that period.

Right from the very start of my involvement with speedway I was always interested in its history and I read up as much as I could and spoke to many "old timers", who had been going to speedway for years. Based on this, and on my own observations of the then current speedway scene, every now and then I used to produce my own Top 20 greatest riders list, which over the years I did it, which was most of the 1960s, changed every time I did it. However, the Top Four always stayed the same (though the order changed!) and they were Ove Fundin, Vic Duggan, Tom Farndon and Jack Parker.

He did beat Malcolm Simmons though!

Yes, I take your point, but the problem here is that riders like Price and Williams didn't have the same opportunities as modern day riders like Woffinden, or even Collins, to ride in other top level events as there weren't any. One of the difficulties in comparing riders from different eras. Also the league in the late 40s and early 50s did contain all the world's top riders of the day, so, in a way, league averages were probably much more important in those days as a comparison between riders. And, in fact, my earlier post was only a comparison between Price and Williams and my attempt to explain why I would place Price above Williams.

Terry Stone did actually manage to save a few trophies, but was too late for all the paper ephemera.

Well, I guess if we take the question strictly of referring just to the world championship victories and nothing else, Woffinden has to be first as he won 3, then Williams and Craven with 2 and then the rest. No argument. Your second question is exactly the dilemma I mentioned.

I'm guessing this must be the first time ever that a thread on the Speedway Forum has moved into other interesting discussions not directly related to the original op.

I think he died in about 2006.

It is also the case that Tommy Price was at the top longer than Freddie Williams. As iris says he qualified for the 1939 World Final and it was only the period between 1951 and 1954 that Fred Williams topped Tommy Price in the League averages. Even in 1950, when Williams won the World Final, he only came 13th in the League averages with an average of 8.75 to Price's 9.83 and 3rd place. In 1955 and 1956, Price again outscored Williams in the League. It is true that in that 1950-1953 period, Williams had a far superior World Final record, but he really only had five years at the top while Price was at the top in 1939 and then from 1946 - 1956, and again, as iris point out, missed out what would probably have been his very best years.. Which brings us back to the question of do we count the best as the rider who was at the top the longest or the rider who had a shorter period at the top but was probably better in that short period? Which is part of the problem when comparing Lee with Craven or Collins for example.

Ok, found them! The Speedway Star for 13 April, in an article by Frank MacLean, says almost word for word what Brian Burford says in his book, under the headline, 'Craven asks for move'. The 20 April follow-up, also by Frank MacLean, is headlined, 'Belle Vue said "No" to Craven. This article says: 'Belle Vue gave a very definite "No!" to Peter Craven's request for a transfer recently. In fact, the Manchester track management simply refused to hear anything more about the World Champion going to another track..." 'But the rider in question has other ideas, He told me as much before leaving his Liverpool home to board the plane for Vienna...So the matter, it now appears will need to go to a Board of Arbitration for settlement. 'Several tracks, and I understand Norwich is one of them, are more than just interested in getting Craven but at this stage when even the question of transfer fees cannot be considered it is impossible to say just where the World Champion would move.....'

He was also secretary of the New Cross Supporters' Club in 1960 and 1961.

I think mine would be the same as yours, Rob, except I would have nos. 6&7 the other way round.

I deny it. What about Tom Farndon?

Yes, he is definitely wrong about Craven starting off a handicap, but I think that citing contemporary issues of Speedway Star regarding Craven's transfer request shows it did happen. My own copies are in storage at the moment, but hopefully I can get down to look at them tomorrow. I'll keep you posted!