norbold

And we must never forget Stan Stevens.

My understanding of what happened to Knutson was partly as you say, also that his form suffered in 1966 because he was getting too involved in his business interests and unable to concentrate as he would have liked on speedway so he decided he couldn't continue with both and it was speedway that had to give.

Yes, I find this speculation on who would have won under Grand Prix v. one-offs endlessly fascinating - especially as we can never know the answer. It has always been my opinion, for example, that in the era of the Big Five, taken over a season of Grand Prix, Ove Fundin would have won more titles than the five he actually did win. He was the best and most consistent rider around for something like eight years at least and would have definitely been in the running for a further four . Maybe Briggo might have stopped him once or twice, but I think we could add at least another two to Fundin's tally of wins and I don't think three would be out of the question. So possibly seven or eight titles.

I'm sorry, Sidney, but iris is right. It's such a shame because most times on these Years Gone By posts you usually have some interesting things to say, but really, you don't do yourself any favours when you get into these sort of personal rants about people just because you happen to disagree with them.

Yes, I certainly agree about Knutson. Being a West Ham supporter, I had the great fortune of seeing Knutson and Harrfeldt week in and week out. I would definitely agree that Knutson would certainly have given Mauger a run for his money. He was class personified. They always say it was his nerves that got the better of him on the big occasion and that was why he didn't win more world titles. Not sure how true that is, but I expect that after winning once and proved himself he would have gone on to dominate the sport in the late 60s and maybe into the 70s. Harrfeldt, I'm not so sure about. Yes, he was a great rider, as his 2nd place in 1966 showed, and he may have gone on to win a world title, but I don't think he was quite in the Fundin, Briggs, Knutson, Mauger class.

Why do you think he was "approaching his peak"? What evidence is there for that? Remember he first won the World title in 1955. He was roughly the same age as Fundin and Briggs; Knutson was younger. I would say that all of them, Craven included, were AT their peak in the early-mid 60s. In addition, I know it's not a fact and just my opinion, but as someone who was around at the time, I would say Craven was fourth best of those four. A view supported by the Speedway Star, who placed him 4th behind Fundin, Knutson, Briggs (in that order) in their 1963 end of year rankings list. Personally, as I said, my view is that he would not have won another World title. Of course, we will never know and who knows what part luck might have played in subsequent finals?

There are lots of riders who could have won more world titles if luck had been on their side, but that's part of the game old chap. You can't just decide someone really won three world titles because they might have been a bit unlucky twice. I also cannot agree that Craven was approaching his peak when he died. He had been at his peak for a while. Yes, he may have won more titles, but there is no real reason to assume he would have. Fundin, Briggs and Knutson were also at their peak and then along came Mauger. My personal opinion is that PC the first wouldn't have won any more titles.

That's good news. So I didn't miss out on this great delicacy then.

I only ever went once, 1965, as it was the match away to Cradley Heath that won West Ham the league that year. Sadly, I didn't try the pork and stuffing sandwiches.....

Yes, Malcolm Simmons started the season blacklisted, but realised he would not be able to ride in grass track events, his first love at that time, so he applied for his licence back. This was granted on condition, of course, he rode for a National League team and Tommy Price signed him up for West Ham. And yes, it was Bobby Dugard he replaced. Dugard moved on to Wimbledon. And in that memorable 14 August meeting at Wimbledon, Simmons beat Dugard once in the match and once in the second half. Yes, Simmons' second season; Hunter's third.

Norman Hunter's 1964 average was 5.89; Malcolm Simmons was 4.2. These figures are according to West Ham's last programme of the season. In his programme notes for the meeting, Dave Lanning said, "Norman Hunter is the lad who didn't quite make the big time...." Of course in the following year, in 1965, he did make it. While Malcolm Simons became an overnight star on 14 August 1965 when he suddenly, in one match, moved from a reasonable second string to a top rider in what I still consider to be the best and most exciting match I have ever seen.

The only win by Ove that might have been in doubt given your scenario would have been 1967; he had already won his other four titles by the time PC died and Bjorn retired etc. Briggo is more problematic in that two of his titles were after PC died and one after Bjorn retired. But personally, I think Briggo would still have won in 1964 & 1966, as he was riding then better than at any time in his career (I think), though, of course, we will never know. And the results of 1964, 66 and 67 may well have seen PC and Knutson notch up more wins.

And according to Peter Oakes History of British League it was 8.867!

What with Nordin and Hedge, it was all down to Wimbledon then!!!

Fancy you and Chunky both missing racing at the best track ever!

If I remember correctly, I think Nordin was one of the reasons the handicapping of The Big Five (or three by then) came to an end. Apart from not liking it anyway, when Nordin rode for Wimbledon in 1964, Fundin, Briggs and Knutson complained that they shouldn't have to give 10 yards to Nordin as he was as good as they were and most fans agreed. I think it was Briggo who settled the matter in the end by threatening to quit British speedway altogether if handicapping was not ended.

When you say, Nordin was a newcomer, Sid, it is true that 1966 was his first year in the British League, but he was third in the World Championship in 1961 and 5th in 1962 and 1963, and Wimbledon's top scorer in 1964, so not really a newcomer. He was already a world class rider..

Out of interest, I thought I would look up to see who were the best PL riders and how they did against former NL riders. In the 1965 league averages top of the list of former PL riders was Charlie Monk, who was 6th overall with 10.28. Then: Eric Boocock (13th with 9.43); George Hunter (15th with 9.35); Ivor Brown (16th with 9.27); Bill Andrew (19th with 9.07); Dave Younghusband (20th with 9.06) Those were the top six and the only former PL riders with a 9+ average. Incidentally, our old friend from another thread, Nigel Boocock, was top of the averages, the only rider with an 11+ average.

1965 like you of course, CHR. An amazing year for the Hammers.

Yes, I think this is a bit of a problem with the seven you named as Nigel Boocock is not really the same era as the others. He is mainly a 60s man whereas the others are 70s. Of course they all overlapped to some extent, but it is difficult to know how to order them because of that.

This is what I said about Nigel Boocock in my article for Classic Speedway and why I placed him at no. 1: "1. Nigel Boocock. Top place in my best of the 1960s goes to Nigel Boocock. Noted for his blue leathers, there is no doubt he always gave 100% to any race he was involved in, whether it was a second half scratch race or the World Championship final. Throughout the 1960s he was a loyal servant to Coventry. A top rider in the old National League, starting the decade in 1960 with a 9 point average, he really came into his own with the formation of the British League in 1965, knocking up five successive years of 10 plus averages, including an incredible 11.08 in 1965. He qualified for the World Final every year from 1963 except one with 4th place in 1969 proving his best. He appeared for England/Great Britain over 30 times as well as taking part in five World Team Cup finals. He also won many other prestigious individual trophies including the Internationale and Brandonapolis against riders of the calibre of Barry Briggs and Ove Fundin."

Out of interest, some years ago, Tony Mac asked me to compile my Top 20 British riders of the 1960s for "Classic Speedway". My no.1 was Nigel Boocock. Others from Sid's list to appear were: Eric Boocock at no.5; Martin Ashby no.7; Ray Wilson 8 and Terry Betts 9. Norman Hunter has also been mentioned on here - I placed him at no.14.

If Diane Abbott had made the same mistake, it’d be splashed across the front page of all the national newspapers and she'd never be allowed to forget it.

As everyone else has said, very difficult to choose between them and I'm also sure I would come up with a different answer tomorrow, but for now, I'll go with: 1. Nigel Boocock (perhaps remembering him from an older era than some here), 2. Malcolm Simmons, 3. Eric Boocock, 4. John Louis, 5. Ray Wilson, 6. Martin Ashby, 7. Terry Betts.

Very sad news. He was a truly great journalist and brought speedway alive through his various columns in the Star.