iris123

Please be my guest and name the titles he won.And i am talking about on the World Championship trail,not individual open meetings at Swindon or somewhere.We are discussing the World Championship here.Leigh won GPs on the quest to win a World title.How many titles did Phil win and how many World Finals did he qualify for?I consider Leigh to have regularly been in the World top 5,can't say i can say the same about Phil over a similar period of time

Even though i saw Crump help Australia win the World Team Cup at White City,i don't really see him as a World Title contender(not on any sort of consistent basis at least).Apart from that team championship how many titles did he win?I mean things like the Australasian Title or Commonwealth etc?Leigh proved he had the bottle to win GPs,but i think lost his nerve if he got into contention.Whereas Crump never won even a decent title from memory and didn't qualify for that many Finals either.To me ,hard to compare the two

Of course i will disagree.If a rider was ever theoretically suited to a GP season it was Leigh Adams.Mister consistent throughout the year.Over so many seasons he was bound to win one at least.The only reason he didn't must surely be down to nerves when it came to the crunch.And in a GP season it does come to the crunch,just as it does in the old World Final .

I give as evidence.....Leigh Adams

That would probably be the same as Laguta representing Latvia in the SGP.He wasn't Latvian,just had a Latvian licence.Guess Pijper rides with a French flag on his jacket if any.Similar i think Sirg Schützbach rode in the Longtrack as a Swiss rider,but is German

Agree with you 100%.Times have moved on and like i say,imo the GPs are an improvement on the old system.Although i do think that back in the 70s and 80s there was more strength in depth which makes it harder for new riders to break into the GPs.Think Michanek in one of the Backtrack mags mentioned just how many more riders there were in Sweden back in his day than there are now.Same must go for Britain and a lot of countries. So many riders are riding in so many leagues they must be taking the places that would have gone to home grown riders in other decades. And i have to say Humphrey that good meetings in Germany and also Denmark are few and far between,apart from the Güstrow track which does serve up regular quality racing

1973 was the one i was thinking of.Might have been to the '67 one...But i would say the Sping Classic,Will's Internationale,Div 2 Riders Championship and NZ v Australia along with The Laurels(possibly) that year would be better gates.maybe a Wimbledon v Hackney or some other team meeting as top 5

Disappointed.....YGT in Vetlanda + Wawrow for the Euro 80cc,so no big 80cc meeting for me next year At least what should be a decent enough i guess line-up at Stralsund .Not a track the Finns have had much success at though

Not sure what you are saying here......you mean that many of the qualifying rounds provided more exciting racing?That might be quite possible back in the old days as all the tracks were much better prepared and the riders were of a more even ability But more exciting from a fans point of view?If your favourite was in the line-up and in with a chance of course it would be more exciting than watching a GP where you have no favourite....But i went to at least one British semi Final at Plough Lane and i don't think the attendance featured in the top 5 meetings at Wimbledon that year,so what does that tell you?And as for the last bit.....just how many foreign rounds like the Swedish Final or a Continental meeting did you attend? It is all personal opinions,but i doubt many people would agree with you

Why do you always seem to over react?No-one is saying the old system was endemically corrupt and i haven't seen anyone saying the GP system is perfect.In fact there have been numerous posts from people defending the GP system that say "it isn't perfect,just better than the old system....."I would though think it harder to buy a GP title because of the far numerous amount of heats involved than it would be in a 5 heat(for each rider)World Final.And of course even the GPs are not without glib comment such as one or two of the Sky team talking about Sayfutdinovs engines a few years back or glib remarks about the Polish riders.....But i guess at the moment the evidence is more in favour of the GPs being clean.Who knows though what might come to light in decades to come?

As luck would have it,searching for the results of the Speedway on Ice meeting in Freital yesterday i came across the regs for next seasons Bundesliga.Simplified it a bit and dropped the mandatory German U21 rider,because of the reasons i stated in my previous post.Too few good riders or to put it another way too much difference between the riders that can be used.So... Just two categories A grade Kevin,Smoli and Hefe plus all foreign over 21 riders.GP riders not allowed B grade All other German riders and riders on German licence plus foreign U21 riders.Two foreign U21 riders can be used Team to be made up of 1 A + 4 B grade riders.So now 3 foreign riders per meeting can be used if the A grade is a foreigner and two U21 foreigners are used

I was imagining it a bit like this......

Think there are a number of well documented cases.Ask Norbold.There was even one case of a rider failing to get his World Title because he actually refused to bung a rider a few quid(i think he turned down the offer if i remember rightly)and got beat in his last heat

Know them?He probably wrote them up.I imagine it being a bit like Only Fools and Horses,when Rodney was unwillingly voted on the Housing commitee as Chairman while the old Chairman was only pleased to get out of the job and down the pub......

I am all confused now,as i thought you and one or two others have spent days,weeks and months trying to convince us how flawed and unfair the GP system is.Now you say ....Also the old system can no more be 'proven' "unfair and wrong" than the current one

Not 100% sure on all of this.Had a look in the Bundesliga proggies i went to this year and no explanation given......But i think it is similar to the Danish Superliga.Gradings A,B and C.Not allowed to use more than two from any grade.Only two foreigners max in any team and at least one German U21.No GP riders.Foreigners i think will always be graded A,as are the best Germans like Kevin W and Smoli.Landshut had it good with Smoli and one foreigner at A,then Facher & Dilger B with Marcel Helfer as the U21.Wolfslake for instance had problems with the German B grade riders,but had a great U21 rider in Huckenbeck....Brokstedt had an ok team with Kevin + Tobi at A grade(but had to use a foreign A grade some meetings...)then the old duo of Matten Kröger and Stephan Katt who are steady without being super,but had trouble with the U21.Rather an unflexible system if one of the key riders is injured you have no chance of a good replacement and the good German U21 riders are few and far between.Wolfslake have got round some of the problems by using polish riders on German passes.Sekula at the moment(although he hardly seems worth the trouble) and i think Hlib in the past is another example,plus i had the feeling Szombierski was being lined up as well as he was on occasion listed for Mecklenberg-Vorpommern Championship and maybe even in the Wolfslake line-up....

Stand corrected.Didn't bother to look it up.But my one and only meeting between Wimbledon closing and a Vojens GP in 2003 or so was 1995 Eastie V Bradford,so i should have guessed

But Wembley was a thing of the past as was Bradford even before the GPs came along.You can't argue against the GPs with things that were part of the past and won't come back.Britain had it good for a long time and failed to capitalise on all of that.....No good thinking those days will ever come back with or without a one day World Final.If we went back to a World Final old style now which venue would we get?Guess we would be lucky to get Cardiff once every 4 years or so.And that money shared out(even if it was allowed now)amongst all the clubs once every 4 years wouldn't go far.Just like it didn't seem to help any of the old promoters to buy a stadium........

I would say one of the problems in the old system was the fact that anyone could and often did qualify for the World Final.That and the fact that any race could and possibly was bought for money was also a big factor in the problem and with the sports credibility with the British public.Bad publicity of that sort and of course sex,drugs and rock n roll.....well some things don't change there What can be fairer than the best riders riding for the World title i ask you?Certainly not a system where some of them have been left out for others who have had an easier route.And then the crown being won by someone passing a brown envelope filled with dollars to another rider or winning because someone had a bit of bad luck in one heat....

Hmmmm I do though remember when one of the greatest Athletes ever failed to make the Olympics 100m because he finished 4th in the US trials

Be interesting to see how Tschajka goes,but not really a great line-up compared to recent years.No Baraboschkin. What will be more interesting is the meeting in Kamensk at the start of December.International line-up including from what i saw on the Russian forum a rider from 'England' Wonder who has agreed to travel out? And also nice to see that Ufa will follow Togliatti and have the riders in a team colour scheme of blue/white.Think one of the other teams have gone for green/white.Now if they were hoops..... Anyway,good to see that training has started in Novosibirisk

Parsloes,you say some people like the new system,some don't.Fair enough you don't like it.But there isn't really a decent argument against using a series of meetings to find a World Champion.And any rider has in theory a chance of qualifying.It is down to the individual Federations to decide how they decide who they nominate.In Denmark they use(i think still)the results from the Danish Final and also Danish U19/21 Finals to decide who they nominate for the World and Euro Champs....I do remember seeing something from the FIM asking Federations to only nominate riders who were at a certain level.Pretty well every system has flaws.Look at the Olympics and because of limits on Countries it means that some of the best athletes don't get a chance to compete.Is that good,just so you can get a runner or swimmer from a backwater country who lags way behind?It is hard to argue against the GP selection system,because as soon as one rider drops out it is pretty damn hard to find anyone outside the GPs who could come in and do a decent job of attempting to get into the top 8

Even if we accept the rather jaw dropping assumption that Hoskins was somehow too modest to mention his racing prowess,don't you think it strange Jack that one or two riders when talking about Johnnie didn't say "Oh he was a fantastic man to work for,always put on a great show and of course was quite an accomplished rider himself.....rode against him in Denmark......."? Never ever seen anyone,not Hoskins,nor his son,nor any riders mention the fact that Johnnie was a speedway rider.I mean he was quite famous for his end of season celebrations,but did we see him racing around Wembley,West Ham or Odsal,even in a mechanics race?

Isn't Protasiewicz a prime example of it being easier to qualify through the GP qualis than it is to get into the top 8 or 10?Walasek,Ulamek also maybe?

Must have got the 1965 annual for Xmas.Was one of my treasured possesions for donkeys years. Think i might still have it in the cellar somewhere