pandorum

But they can still throw money at flying in Europes garbage when it suits them. The sport has wasted a fortune on foreign rubbish instead of investing in its own. Now they want the kids they never gave a toss about to prop up the dying EL because that money for useless foreigners is drying up. How can those kids become anywhere near competetive when they are fed peanuts compared to what was wasted on other countries dross. They can still find cash to fly in the Michael Bech's of this world but insult thier own by expecting them to ride for handouts. 600 quid a week sounds great but how much do the riders really end up with out of that after riding in say 2 leagues and trying to be competetive and also learning something from the experience.

To be fair they have to do a lot of work to be able to do those 10 minutes and have a lot of expense. Not many jobs cost you a fortune to do like speedway. I used to have to buy a donkey jacket and a pair of boots and usually got my money back fromt he firm I worked for. These lads would have to pay a lot up front to be competetive in the EL. I bet the promoters paid a lot more to those nuggets they used to fly back and forward so why not invest in the NL guys a bit. It seems as if the promoters just want 2 kids to ride around for 4 laps between each other over 2 races and come last in a couple of others with stiffer opposition so they can brag about how much effort they are putting into the next generation. They wasted a fortune on foreign garbage but won't seriously invest in our own kids. Pretty much says it all. This will fail even before the first hurdle. Damn shame as it is the only way to really bring our kids on.

Gin and Tonic for me I could not tell a Bordeaux and a Claret from the arceend of Jupiter.

Comparing Poundland to British Speedway is a bit of an insult don't you think To Poundland.

Very sad and very fair point

True but Ireland is part of the British Isles so whether they want it or not Ireland is British. It's just become complicated that England being the dominant force in the British Isles is associated with Britain when we are actually simply one part of The British Isles. Great Britain is the largest of the two islands in the archipelago that makes up the British Isles. But the smaller one Ireland is still part of that British Isles so technically we are ALL British. Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain because it is not connected and a seperate Island but is still British wether it wants to be or not.

Sad part is when clubs do close it's a hard road to reopen them. Hopefully Boro can sort out a buyer and join a league for 2014 as it's nothing short of a disaster to lose such a valuable assett. But if not 2014 it will then become harder to get them back. We have seen this happen so many times in the sport sadly. Speedway is hardly brimming with money and prospective saviours.

TWK you should know by now that the BSPA are contractually obliged to introduce one insane idea per year to offset any good they may have inadvertently done. It's probably the fault of you PL fans who have been saying for years how sensiblely run the PL is. The EL promoters will now be able to say 'how do you like them apples' to the PL after lumbering you with such a silly format.

That's just getting daft now Skidder. You know as well as I do what I meant and know that it stands as an argument. Sky Sports no more 'sponsored' the EL than I did. They simply filled in a void that with any other sport would have been filled by a named company. And the idea that the media did not give speedway any exposure because Sky Sports 'sponsored' it is frankly silly. The media did not give speedway any coverage because it is a minor sport even among minor sports which has hardly any supporters, has not a clue how to push itself forward even with the brilliant coverage SKY gave it and is pretty much dying and irrelevant here sadly.

That is indeed a fair point but thats Britons for you. Three things we love to do. Queue, moan and moan about queuing What a team Torun have. Looking at the signings at the top the rest are not just gonna lie down for Torun there should be some cracking matches on Polish TV for us to enjoy. Tarnow and Gorzow look strong and Zielona Gora have a handy top 5. I guess a lot will depend on the reserves as Dudek has moved up but there are still a lot of good Polish kids on the way up to fill in the #6 and #7 berths. Przedpelski proved that a rider can go from scoring 1 point a meeting to rattling up double figures and beating GP riders and former world champions from the back. Of course Torun are a disgrace and should have been thrown out the league but that did not happen and for us armchair viewers there will be some great Sunday viewing to compensate us for our righteous anger

That has happened in Poland. Pawel Przedpelski went from scoring 1 point a match to getting 16 points and beating GP riders but was still reserve and probably will be this coming season at Torun. Surely if that happens here it is the good fortune of the team that has such a young lad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ts_6lYFTAs

I think you have to anaylyse what people say from a perspective of semantics. I think the BSPA are idiots but that does not mean I think they are particularly unintelligent. Let's face it for 15 years they had a massive boost from TV but failed to attract one single sponsor for thier league. They failed to use the TV to thier advantage in promoting the sport to a wider audience. They have made no attempt to showcase the sport by picking carefully matches to be shown on TV and were quite happy to fill the screen with dross that put off thier core speedway audience let alone brought a new audience to the sport. They don't have a clue how to use the latest media to promote the sport. They oversaw shambles after shambles with rules being bent, twisted, ignored and even made up on the fly to suit the favoured few. They were selfish, greedy and spiteful and with thier petty point scoring were quite happy to see teams go out of existence rather than work together for the good of the sport. They ignore thier core customers even to the point of treating them as the enemy. They have squandered thier TV bounty and the goodwill between fan and promoter. Now they realise they are in the s### and are asking the kids to pull them out of it. To me that is a bunch of idiots.

Exactly. Who can blame Chris for looking after himself. He did a good stint here and deserves respect for that. He probably won't be the last bailing out on UK speedway. The money has dried up and riders will move on to more lucrative pastures. Good luck to them. Now it's up to us to produce our own Pawel Przedpelskis and Anton Rosens. We have made a start even if it's a bit of a muddle. Lads like Chris may be doing British Speedway a big favour by not riding here in the league. It might make us take investing in homegrown riders a bit more seriously. I am sure Chris will appear at some stage in the UK. Either when someone has a big individual meeting or when Poole have figured out a way to put him in at #6 for the play offs.

I did not know they had a rule to specifically stop Darcy riding at #2 or #4. I kid of course but was just seriously asking whether they riding order was constrained to prevent heat leaders being jiggled about for away matches. And now I know we do have a rule for that. So teams can move #2 and #4 about but not put the #1 to #3 in those positions. That gives the kids half a chance which is good. They will also get the odd opportunity to pit themselves against heat leader covering exclusions and withdrawls which is also good. If you look at the rise of Pawel Przedpelski in Poland, who was drafted by Torun a couple of seasons back and scored the odd point but was persevered with and is now one of the top kids in Poland who has regularly beaten GP riders,then you can see the potential benefits. But this is the BSPA we are talking about and that sort of dampens my enthusiasm as they are nothing short of incompetents but I agree we should give it a chance. Maybe for once they will get it right. Crazier things have happened. It is hard to keep up with all the ill informed waffle some people have put on here (not saying you so don't have aheart attack) as some kind of gospel but one tries ones best.

No worries This kind of debate will get a little heated especially when we have such vague information from the powers that be. Your point about averages also adds to the maelstrom of utter confusion I think this idea will generate. The reserve may well be 'protected from heat leaders but what happens when a heat leader rides at #2 or #4 for an away meet? I think this whole idea is ill thought out and will unravell as the months count down to the new season. We fans are highlighting how complicated this whole idea will be a few days after it was 'thought' (and I use that word loosely) of. What happens when a top 5 rider retires with a bruised shoulder in heat 3? The reserves will pick up the slack so thier protection goes out the window. What provision will be made to help them be competetive at EL level. This will only happen if there are constraints on the riding order. What is to stop Matt Ford putting Darcy Ward at #2 or #4?

They should have been thrown out the league What a side though. Surely even a -8 start will make no difference. They are faves for the title. Especially if they have Przedpelski at reserve as well.

You are being nonsensical now. The idea that NL reserves would be given 3 rides against each other is too daft even for the BSPA and to be frank not even worth discussing or arguing with. You know as well as all of us here how many reserves races they are talking about. I concede PR was speaking before the Cook statement but what he said did indeed infer two rides at NL standard for reserve. That is the only way to read what he said. And to be fair to me I never said he did say anything about TWO rides. And I was not 'Fixating' on anything simply mentioning that the PR post infererred that reserves would have 2 rides which it clearly does. He may not have meant to infer that but that is what he inferred conciously or otherwise and it led to a lot of confusion for those who are 'in the know' who went on to chastise the rest of us for being too dim to understand the fact that reserves would only have 2 rides. Which was never the case.

That is true but what he infers is exactly that. He says that reserves will only ride among themselves which is not what Cook said. This would infer thay have 2 rides. I being one of those unable to grasp or pay attention to what was being said figured that with one read and did not even have to read it again and again like some. It's the Swedish #2 and #11 model obviously with some, as yet to be announced, changes to 'protect' the NL riders by giving them further rides (I presume 2 to make 4 programmed rides) against second strings. But of course the #2 and #4 position do not always feature second string riders so we will have the further complication of having to constrain team order. The whole thing will get so complicated it will probably just implode and they will just leave NL lads to sink or swim because they are cheap.

Well obviously YOU aren't as the reserves will NOT have TWO programmed rides only but will have a full programme of rides as usual but just not against heat leaders. Of course being reserves they will be available to replace excluded riders or a rider who is injured in a meeting up to a maximum of seven rides as usual so therefore will come into contact with all opposing team members during a course of a season. It would be utterly unfair to ask kids to pull the EL out of the doodah and them insult them by only giving them two rides against riders of NL standard. How would that be fast tracking? People like you are accusing fans of not paying attention but you haven't got a clue what you are talking about yourself. No wonder we are all confused by this muddle. It's as clear as day what is meant as they even mention the Swedish league. In Sweden there are 2 reserves heats which are protected so nobody can make a tac sub in them. The reserves also have the full programmed rides against stronger oppostition giving them a potential 4 programmed rides. They can also replace fellow team members up to a maximimum of 7 rides. Cook mentions they plan to take this idea further by allowing the 2 programmed rides to not include heat leaders although how this will work depends on the new format and also what constraints are on teams as regards team order. If it means reserves ride against #2 and #4 then what happens when Darcy Ward is named #2 for a tricky away match? It makes me laugh that some here who think themselves 'in the know' can make such an obvious blunder. Then they have the gall (not getting at you Phil so keep your hair on) to tell the rest of us we are not paying attention or are unable to grasp the principle. My guess is NO!

Again a fair point but the fact still remains we don't have good and true information. The official statements are vague at best. There is little information as to how they intend to choose the 20 and how this 20 will be able to compete as they will come into contact with the 1-5 because they are reserves and have a potential 7 rides. There is a vague reference to a new format which protects the reserves in a similar way to the Swedish model. The idea is full of ambiguity, equivocation and vagueness and the reaction to it will reflect this. Again what you say is welcome and interesting in terms of the debate but once again it is the official statements that people are basing thier view on not your statements so the conclusions based on this cannot be devalued by unofficial statements issued by forum members. Unless you are speaking for the BSPA of course? As you say this is a practical measure rather than any foresight and as such fans will be suspicious of it

Yes but would the Women's Institute be interested in doing this sort of thing in November. After all there is a lot of knitting to do this time of year.

That's a fair point but let's not get too carried away. Many of us making uninformed judgements are not new to the sport and have decades of experience of the BSPA and thier incompetence. I don't think we are ignoring any information as such simply that many don't trust the BSPA. Surely you are not arguing that they have done this out of any altruistic desire to help young speedway riders? There is a level of ambiguity in what the BSPA have said so far (and for the purpose of discussion I use that term to encompass Cooks statment as well). Obviously one would expect this to be fleshed out and made clearer but it does all smack of something cobbled together with less thought than should be accorded it considering the fundamental changes to the sport this will bring not only to the spectator but to the riders expected to fulfil the BSPAs aspirations. Ordinary fans are aware that there are some here that have an insight into what is happening and appreciate that input but this is a discussion and all the points you raise happen in a discussion. But that does not mean ordinary fans input is invalid just because it does not agree with what people like you bring to the debate. We still await any official blueprint as to what is happening and how it is actually going to happen as so far we have had a few blurbs mentioning this in the BSPA statement and Cooks comments. I have seen you have made some good points and have added some information but it still leaves me thinking this is an ill thought out panic measure when it should be a well thought out blueprint for the forseeable future. Damn I am Jelly unless it was the two guys in which case I am not

So you are saying the rest of us are basing our opinions on WHAT exactly? You have read and read again. What does that mean and how does that make your opinion more worthy than any of us? It is being discussed and people like you who are apparently a bit more involved add a very important contribution and yes maybe you know a little more than the rest of us. But I presume most of us can read here and we have read what has been said by the BSPA/Cook statements. Perhaps we have not read it as many times as you but what you say seems a bit patronizing. I used to build bridges for a living and once got drunk with Iron Maiden but that does not mean I think I am smarter than anyone here or more important or that my opinion carries more weight than anyone else. Perhaps if others did likewise, this might help them to understand that we are all speedway fans here and entitled to our opinions even if they are based on incomplete information.

Sadly in todays world that can have an adverse effect on the sport. People want excitement and close meetings are more exciting than massacres. I like the idea of a maximum number of tac subs and a cut off at #12. Also reward the away team and get rid of the extra point for a home slaughter. Maybe bring back the bonus point. Do everything to make the match interesting for the paying public. Other sports have intricate point scoring so it's not a big deal for speedway. Same as the tactical rule. It's a good idea if it helps the away team keep in with a chance of a reward for hard work. It's just this silly double point rule favours massively the team with the most star riders. All the proper speedway leagues use the old tried and tested tac sub rule so why not the minor leagues like ours