pandorum

I think you have to anaylyse what people say from a perspective of semantics. I think the BSPA are idiots but that does not mean I think they are particularly unintelligent. Let's face it for 15 years they had a massive boost from TV but failed to attract one single sponsor for thier league. They failed to use the TV to thier advantage in promoting the sport to a wider audience. They have made no attempt to showcase the sport by picking carefully matches to be shown on TV and were quite happy to fill the screen with dross that put off thier core speedway audience let alone brought a new audience to the sport. They don't have a clue how to use the latest media to promote the sport. They oversaw shambles after shambles with rules being bent, twisted, ignored and even made up on the fly to suit the favoured few. They were selfish, greedy and spiteful and with thier petty point scoring were quite happy to see teams go out of existence rather than work together for the good of the sport. They ignore thier core customers even to the point of treating them as the enemy. They have squandered thier TV bounty and the goodwill between fan and promoter. Now they realise they are in the s### and are asking the kids to pull them out of it. To me that is a bunch of idiots.

I did not know they had a rule to specifically stop Darcy riding at #2 or #4. I kid of course but was just seriously asking whether they riding order was constrained to prevent heat leaders being jiggled about for away matches. And now I know we do have a rule for that. So teams can move #2 and #4 about but not put the #1 to #3 in those positions. That gives the kids half a chance which is good. They will also get the odd opportunity to pit themselves against heat leader covering exclusions and withdrawls which is also good. If you look at the rise of Pawel Przedpelski in Poland, who was drafted by Torun a couple of seasons back and scored the odd point but was persevered with and is now one of the top kids in Poland who has regularly beaten GP riders,then you can see the potential benefits. But this is the BSPA we are talking about and that sort of dampens my enthusiasm as they are nothing short of incompetents but I agree we should give it a chance. Maybe for once they will get it right. Crazier things have happened. It is hard to keep up with all the ill informed waffle some people have put on here (not saying you so don't have aheart attack) as some kind of gospel but one tries ones best.

No worries This kind of debate will get a little heated especially when we have such vague information from the powers that be. Your point about averages also adds to the maelstrom of utter confusion I think this idea will generate. The reserve may well be 'protected from heat leaders but what happens when a heat leader rides at #2 or #4 for an away meet? I think this whole idea is ill thought out and will unravell as the months count down to the new season. We fans are highlighting how complicated this whole idea will be a few days after it was 'thought' (and I use that word loosely) of. What happens when a top 5 rider retires with a bruised shoulder in heat 3? The reserves will pick up the slack so thier protection goes out the window. What provision will be made to help them be competetive at EL level. This will only happen if there are constraints on the riding order. What is to stop Matt Ford putting Darcy Ward at #2 or #4?

They should have been thrown out the league What a side though. Surely even a -8 start will make no difference. They are faves for the title. Especially if they have Przedpelski at reserve as well.

You are being nonsensical now. The idea that NL reserves would be given 3 rides against each other is too daft even for the BSPA and to be frank not even worth discussing or arguing with. You know as well as all of us here how many reserves races they are talking about. I concede PR was speaking before the Cook statement but what he said did indeed infer two rides at NL standard for reserve. That is the only way to read what he said. And to be fair to me I never said he did say anything about TWO rides. And I was not 'Fixating' on anything simply mentioning that the PR post infererred that reserves would have 2 rides which it clearly does. He may not have meant to infer that but that is what he inferred conciously or otherwise and it led to a lot of confusion for those who are 'in the know' who went on to chastise the rest of us for being too dim to understand the fact that reserves would only have 2 rides. Which was never the case.

That is true but what he infers is exactly that. He says that reserves will only ride among themselves which is not what Cook said. This would infer thay have 2 rides. I being one of those unable to grasp or pay attention to what was being said figured that with one read and did not even have to read it again and again like some. It's the Swedish #2 and #11 model obviously with some, as yet to be announced, changes to 'protect' the NL riders by giving them further rides (I presume 2 to make 4 programmed rides) against second strings. But of course the #2 and #4 position do not always feature second string riders so we will have the further complication of having to constrain team order. The whole thing will get so complicated it will probably just implode and they will just leave NL lads to sink or swim because they are cheap.

Well obviously YOU aren't as the reserves will NOT have TWO programmed rides only but will have a full programme of rides as usual but just not against heat leaders. Of course being reserves they will be available to replace excluded riders or a rider who is injured in a meeting up to a maximum of seven rides as usual so therefore will come into contact with all opposing team members during a course of a season. It would be utterly unfair to ask kids to pull the EL out of the doodah and them insult them by only giving them two rides against riders of NL standard. How would that be fast tracking? People like you are accusing fans of not paying attention but you haven't got a clue what you are talking about yourself. No wonder we are all confused by this muddle. It's as clear as day what is meant as they even mention the Swedish league. In Sweden there are 2 reserves heats which are protected so nobody can make a tac sub in them. The reserves also have the full programmed rides against stronger oppostition giving them a potential 4 programmed rides. They can also replace fellow team members up to a maximimum of 7 rides. Cook mentions they plan to take this idea further by allowing the 2 programmed rides to not include heat leaders although how this will work depends on the new format and also what constraints are on teams as regards team order. If it means reserves ride against #2 and #4 then what happens when Darcy Ward is named #2 for a tricky away match? It makes me laugh that some here who think themselves 'in the know' can make such an obvious blunder. Then they have the gall (not getting at you Phil so keep your hair on) to tell the rest of us we are not paying attention or are unable to grasp the principle. My guess is NO!

Again a fair point but the fact still remains we don't have good and true information. The official statements are vague at best. There is little information as to how they intend to choose the 20 and how this 20 will be able to compete as they will come into contact with the 1-5 because they are reserves and have a potential 7 rides. There is a vague reference to a new format which protects the reserves in a similar way to the Swedish model. The idea is full of ambiguity, equivocation and vagueness and the reaction to it will reflect this. Again what you say is welcome and interesting in terms of the debate but once again it is the official statements that people are basing thier view on not your statements so the conclusions based on this cannot be devalued by unofficial statements issued by forum members. Unless you are speaking for the BSPA of course? As you say this is a practical measure rather than any foresight and as such fans will be suspicious of it

Yes but would the Women's Institute be interested in doing this sort of thing in November. After all there is a lot of knitting to do this time of year.

That's a fair point but let's not get too carried away. Many of us making uninformed judgements are not new to the sport and have decades of experience of the BSPA and thier incompetence. I don't think we are ignoring any information as such simply that many don't trust the BSPA. Surely you are not arguing that they have done this out of any altruistic desire to help young speedway riders? There is a level of ambiguity in what the BSPA have said so far (and for the purpose of discussion I use that term to encompass Cooks statment as well). Obviously one would expect this to be fleshed out and made clearer but it does all smack of something cobbled together with less thought than should be accorded it considering the fundamental changes to the sport this will bring not only to the spectator but to the riders expected to fulfil the BSPAs aspirations. Ordinary fans are aware that there are some here that have an insight into what is happening and appreciate that input but this is a discussion and all the points you raise happen in a discussion. But that does not mean ordinary fans input is invalid just because it does not agree with what people like you bring to the debate. We still await any official blueprint as to what is happening and how it is actually going to happen as so far we have had a few blurbs mentioning this in the BSPA statement and Cooks comments. I have seen you have made some good points and have added some information but it still leaves me thinking this is an ill thought out panic measure when it should be a well thought out blueprint for the forseeable future. Damn I am Jelly unless it was the two guys in which case I am not

So you are saying the rest of us are basing our opinions on WHAT exactly? You have read and read again. What does that mean and how does that make your opinion more worthy than any of us? It is being discussed and people like you who are apparently a bit more involved add a very important contribution and yes maybe you know a little more than the rest of us. But I presume most of us can read here and we have read what has been said by the BSPA/Cook statements. Perhaps we have not read it as many times as you but what you say seems a bit patronizing. I used to build bridges for a living and once got drunk with Iron Maiden but that does not mean I think I am smarter than anyone here or more important or that my opinion carries more weight than anyone else. Perhaps if others did likewise, this might help them to understand that we are all speedway fans here and entitled to our opinions even if they are based on incomplete information.

Why do people assume that when people debate these issue they are assuming they know more than the BSPA? It's a discussion forum and people are discussing things. People discuss football without running Man Utd or managing the England team so why can't they do it in speedway? I once discussed the Moon landings but am not an astronaut.

I won't argue with you there we all assume when we are poorly informed. I agree with you let's give them time but like many here I am not convinced they will deliver and their track record is not good sadly. It will be a couple of interesting few months let's hope for once this crew can actually deliver something

Not according to some here that are more informed of the way the BSPA work. They apparently had regular meetings during the season and a pre AGM so they must have had some discussion on the subject and had some idea of how it would work. If it was just chucked in over the weekend then fans have every right to be scornful of such a half thought out plan. It's a bit unfair to criticise fans for not falling at the feet in gratitude at the BSPA reducing the product for the paying public. Of course it's something worthy and long overdue and yes we don't know the detail but then the detail seems to be unknown also to those who thought of it. We saw riders from the PL like that Lawson kid find it impossible to make ends meet in the EL so how difficult will it be for the NL boys. I wish the NL lads all the luck in the world and hope they gain something out of the experience but we all know why they are getting this chance and it's not because the BSPA care about the National Team or the youngsters they will use to fill EL rosters now the Golden Goose has flown and all the eggs were wasted on Greg Hancock and his ilk. A well thought out program with obtainable goals set for the progression of these lads will indeed be a great idea that all fans should support but this seems like the EL is short of cash and 5 regular paid riders and 2 NL kids rather than expensive foreign rubbish fits the bill. The sensible reservations people here have will have to be dealt with before the season starts so people saying March is a long way off are naive. There are a lot of problems to be addressed long before the new season starts. I wonder how long the queue will be of NL kids wanting to race in the top league. How they will be distributed and how they will be competetive are serious concerns. The new format idea is good but again it seems that nobody as yet knows what it will be. If 2 reserve heats and still 15 heats that further dilutes the product which was not worth the price at EL level this year. People will be asked to pay more for less once again. Another serious concern for fan and promoter. Let's not kid ourselves that these people are some kind of geniuses. They are doing this because the sport is up a certain creek without any oars. The coming weeks will be very interesting and hopefully something good can come out of it at the end.

Come on be fair we have all been drunk before on a Sunday and had to cobble together a good reason why we will be late Monday morning. This is the BSPA equivalent of that. Some good points made here by fans who actually have a bit of an idea of how difficult this very worthy notion to blood youngsters will actually be to implement. When the BSPA sober up and realise just what it is they propose we may well see some backtracking. They haven't got a clue these imbiciles and this hasty cost cutting excercise may well fall at the first hurdle that of actually FINDING youngsters to fill 20 berths for #6 and #7 If they paid more attention to fans they might learn something. But panic must have set in when they realised they have pretty much bankrupted the sport with thier petty ineptitude. Basically we now have five man teams and novices at reserve for what £17? Will they dare raise prices more than that? It's the most worthy idea these clowns have had for decades but they have done it out of sheer panic rather than well thought out forward thinking and as such made a complete arce of themselves. No change there then A very fair point but surely it begs the question why the BSPA have decided on such a radical solution without having any idea how to actually achieve it. Do these youngsters know they will be asked to ride in the EL next year. Are any of them capable of taking up such an offer. A system of progression NL/PL/EL is a great idea but this is such a radical step that surely those expected to fulfill the BSPA aspirations should be ready to step in and fill the huge breach between the leagues. I think fine tuning is a euphemism for sheer panic once the season draws near. It's something that fans here have been advocating for years. I have blathered on about it myself here. But perhaps it is a step TOO far to expect NL kids to fill EL rosters without PL experience first. Maybe a season where this was implemented at PL level with maybe EL a year later. To be fair to the lemmings in charge it's not easy to produce a production liine of new talent from scratch and existing programmes are apparently helping to bring young lads on a bit. But maybe this will be too much for youngsters and be detrimental to thier progress rather than help them. The idea that it is some master plan to help youngsters is of course laughable and nobody here will be fooled by it. It's to save money as it's all been frittered away on those that will dump the EL for the more lucrative leagues unless they need some laps at the end of the season like Hancock. But the sad part is it should have BEEN a master plan with a definite idea how to achieve it and some sort of stepped progression for young riders to achieve. We will see if this idea will work and what effect it will have on upandcoming speedway riders. Let's hope for thier sake it does work. I think we all back the sentiment simply are not convinced of the BSPAs commitment to it.

It's never stopped these idiots in the past. They will probably just forget this very worthy aspiration half way through the season and go back to training Polish and Danish youngsters.

The Jon Cook statement makes things a bit clearer and it begs the question why they did not just let him make the BSPA statement in the first place as he obviously knows what he is talking about At last something sensible coming out of Idiot Central but this should have been done years ago. Learning from the proper leagues at last but sadly as a byproduct of abject failure and a desperate need to cut costs rather than the forward thinking we needed. But still welcome all the same. Sadly the loss of Peterborough nothing short of a disaster and March is a long way off yet so who knows how many more will follow. How well this new dawn pans out remains to be seen as the handful of top riders are not certain to remain in EL next year. Will this result in a reduction of cost to the spectator as the Lindgrens and possibly Holders depart or any form of actual promotion of the sport. A TV deal would be a bonus true but will the money it brings in be used to invest in the sport rather than pick up the slack in Greg Hancocks season? Still so much uncertainty for the sport which is not in a strong position for the new season as a result of the lack of vision by the clowns in charge. Seeing the light because you are forced to is different to having a foward thinking leadership. The BSPA are still a bunch of idiots but giving them credit where it's due these idiots have at last taken a step forward for whatever reason. This is no new Golden Dawn of the sport rather a realisation that at some point when digging a hole you must stop or you will bury yourself. Let's hope something positive comes out of the 2014 season. It's about bloody time to be honest.

I agree that rewarding a team for a good away performance was a really good idea long overdue. But the BSPA could not resist being daft after such a good idea by rewarding a team who slaughters the opposition at home. The extra point for a home massacre is a silly idea. Better to allow a bonus point for the aggregate win which again allows for a good away performance. The idea is to promote good speedway so in a sport where home advantage is so strong keeping the opposition interested should be a priority. The tried and tested formula isn't failing. It's the team building that has failed miserably. It's racing surfaces that are failing. It's the bringing on of new talent that has failed. It's the overcomplicated rules that have failed. Everything about speedway is failing except the core idea of 4 man races over 4 laps. What difference does it make to have one lap or 5 laps when the riders in the race cannot compete. Two teams that are competetive racing on a circuit that is prepared for racing will produce good speedway.

Hardly likely as it's only a job for a week. Middlo did not have to leave Poole to get the job. For what I can see the main prerequisite for the job is to actually want it as the competition is hardly intense

Well it goes to show you learn something new every day as I did not know that. Still it says something when they do all this and still bugger everything up. But very well made point all the same.

Very laudible of Ford but the most glaringly obvious failing of the so called promoters is that they always try to solve the problems with a 3 day booze up/get together at the end of the season. The problems have been obvious now for years and they should have been discussing this among themselves all this season and been able to come to this p#ss up with a solid agenda for change that had been discussed among themselves in small groups over the season. They should already have a blueprint for the sport's future and use this 3 day bash to ratiffy and fine tune it. This meeting of minds (now that is a laugh) is akin to waiting until you have been tied to the firing post as the firing squad line up and at the command 'Aim' suddenly manage to raise a hand and say 'ah yes but wait a minute I think I might have a solution to my innocence'. 3 days is nowhere near enough to solve the sports problems. And now discussing solutions (Brit only reserves) that have been raised here for years whilst slagging off people here as fringe lunatics shows how inept this bunch of clowns are. 'Hinted at' and 'could be discussed' this is the level of ineptitude we have in UK speedway. The wolf is at the door and he is huffing and puffing and the cardboard house that is British Speedway looks like it is about to be blown down by it's own greed and maladroitness so it's a bit late ringing up a bricklayer. Brit reserves is an absolute must for speedway here and should have been implemented 10 year ago. But it won't save the sport and be like trying to save the Titanic with a session of prayer. The sport is too expensive for both rider, promoter and spectator. The current product is not worth the cost. Costs need to come down markedly but enetertainment value needs to improve radically. Promoters need to promote and leave the paying customer feeling like they have had 2 hours of entertainment. It's not a pipedream as I have attended many a meeting where we got just that. Look to the past to secure some kind of future whilst incorporating the modern era of marketing and social networking to bring the sport to the attention of the many rather than the few. But the danger is that in bringing the sport to the many that 'the many' realise how Mickey Mouse it really is and how stupid those that profess to run it really are. That is the challenge for the promoters. Improve the sport, cut the cost but enhance the experience and stop looking like the bunch of greedy, spiteful, incompetent fools you really are. More for less may sound frightening to such a motley crew but it may well save your worthless arces if you manage to pull it off. But of course we all know what will happen as we have all seen these pointless p#ss ups come and go. Reduction in points and increase in prices blah blah bloody blah.

I like this yellow line idea. Sounds rather progressive and gives me hope that this years booze up will actually produce something worthwhile.

Fair point but it's never really THAT simple is it and what is ever 100% true. Even the fact that the speed of light is a constant is not exactly true We are speedway fans here and we all know that good racing comes from 4 guys who can ride a bike at the same level and have similar equipment. Darcy is a great rider but having him in a race with three guys who can't live with him after the first bend does not mean good racing. Track surface and riders who can compete with each other means good racing. I have never seen NL racing but have seen plenty of junior stuff and it never really compared to the old NNL racing I used to enjoy. But to be fair to the point you made there were differences in standard there as well. The answer is never gonna be easy to find but it's a sad indictment when the people we need to be looking for it don't really seem to be capable.

Yes having the ability to know just when to put in the bloke for the double tac ride is essential. Most of us here I bet used to fill in the names in our programmes well before the announcer told us who was going to be used as a tac sub For England NOT having a team manager would probably be an advantage. Let's face it guys more people speak Babylonian than whatever the hell language Havvy speaks so imagine an argument between him and Chris Harris being commentated on by Sudden Sam.

The quality of the league is best improved by having a decent racing surface and two teams that are comparable and competitive. Top riders, engine tuners and a vanload of fancy equipment don't do a thing for the quality of racing unless everybody has them. There is no quality on show when one team has 5 heat leaders and the other has one if they are lucky. The basic idea of speedway is sound. The best way to improve the sport is regression. The star rider idea has been an abject failure here in the UK.