Sprog1

Not sure I agree with you there. When great riders are slipping from the top its always difficult to accept that the younger ones are as good but Hampel has been knocking at the door for a long time and maybe he really has just got his act together this time. He is just at the right age for a perfect blend of youth and experience. It is interesting though, that in general those who had to qualify the hard way seem to be doing better than those who were gifted a place. If those who were given permanent wild cards don't make the top eight they should be chopped out and made to qualify next year. Nobody would have given Bjerre or Hampel a wild card if they had not also been genuine qualifiers but look at them now.

I think that is the key point that people are missing. The referee was specifically reported to have said that there was no contact when virtually every re-play angle pplayed on Sky showed that there WAS contact. The ref could possibly have dressed it up in some other way to keep Gollob in but to exclude AJ on the grounds of no contact was diabolical. Still, as we all know this is what Polish referees are about.

Now that Chris Holder has announced his intention to do the GP qulalifiers this year it seems to leave a dilemma for Anderson, Lindgren. Woffinden and Harris, all of whom had to rely on being given wild cards for this years GP's. The dilemma is this:- 1 Should they throw all their eggs in one basket and rely on getting into the top 8 or should they take on the extra pressure of doing the qulifiers which may detract from their focus on the GP's themselves ? 2. If they don't do the qualifiers and don't reach the top 8 should any of them be given another wild card next year ? 3. What if they do compete in the qualifiers but don't get through on merit, should they be seeded through anyway? How many chances should they get ? 4 We are told that Harris will not get another wild card next year if he doesn't get through on merit this year, but what if any of the others finish behind him. Should they be given another chance if Bomber goes out ? Personally I don't think any rider should be given consecutive wild cards if they don't get through on merit and if any of them fail to qulalify on merit they should go out for a season, but that is not how Sky see it. How can it be fair on riders like Holder, a genuine qualifier this year, who has the drive and determination to do the qualifiers, if any of the wild cards get another free ticket. What do you think ?

Would be great odds on him getting in a punch-up though, especially with Emil around !

It doesn't help when you post a comment without reading what has already been said. I'll spell it out one last time because people are starting to moan about going off topic. The comment that I made was that Szczakiel was "useless away from Poland." I don't think thats a difficult concept to grasp. It means he did ok in is home country but could not compete with the world's best away from home. The 1971 World Pairs Championship was held in Poland. Thats where Sczakiel lived. His Home country. I never said he was useless in his home country, only when he went away from it. He had no major successes outside of Poland. There is nothing in his record that suggests he was among the worlds best once he rode outside of Poland. I cannot put it anymore succintly than that.

No, not a disrespectful post, but an opinion based on fact. You are entitled to your own opinion but the facts are irrefutable. If you re-read my post you will see that my comment was that Szczakiel was useless outside of Poland and the facts are that he never acheived anything of significance away from his home turf. You mention the 1971 World Pairs where both Poles scored 15 points but that was in Poland. I accept that he did qualify for the '71 World Final, but having been the lowest scoring qualifier he went to the final in Sweden and came last in every race. That shows the stark contrast between his preformances at home and performances abroad.He was in the Polish team for the 1971 World Cup but was by far the lowest scorer in the side for the Qualifier and was replaced in the team for the Final. In '72 he failed to make the World Final, or be selected for the Pairs or World team Cup. 1973 has already been mentioned in my previous post. Frankly it beggars belief that a rider can win the World Final in genuine circumstances then 13 days later score zero in the World Cup. Such an abysmal performance so soon after winning the World Championship is unprecedented. But of course the World Championship was in Poland and the SWC was not, thus supporting my point that he was useless outside of Poland. Whichever way you look at at it Szczakiels international career outside of his home country was the least impressive of any world champion apart possibly from Egon Muller whose win in 1983 was equally controversial, although even Muller had a decent run in the world championship for a few years. Putting all these facts together I find impossible to believe that Szczakiels controversial run off with Mauger was not a stitch-up. Rolling into the tapes from 3 feet away is one thing in an ordinary individual meeting (as the rules were then) but this was for the Speedway Championship of the World and the referee and the start marshal have a duty under the rules to ensure a "fair and equal start". We all know what Polish referees are like even down to today and there is no doubt in my mind that the meeting was contrived to produce a Polish world champion.

"Excellent international standing" ? You're having a laugh aren't you? He was useless outside of Poland. Lets do as you suggest and look ar various competitions;- 1971 fails to qualify for World Final 1972 fails to qualify for World Final 1973 controversially wins World Final in Poland with a Polish referee and Polish start marshal. Just 13 days later comes to England to ride for the Polish team in the World Team Cup at Wembley. Fails to score. Worst performance by any rider in the meeting. 1974 Fails to qualify for the World Final. Named in Polish World Team Cup but finishes last in his first ride and is so hopelessly out classed he is withdrawn from the rest of the meeting and replaced with a reserve 1975 fails to qualify for World Final or WTC 1976 fails to qualify for World Final or WTC. Tours with Polish team against British League sides. Scores 0 at Newport, 4 at Poole, 4 at Hackney and 1 at Coventry. Still only 26 years old this"world class rider" then spends the rest of his career in the Polish 2nd Division and obscurity As for being the best rider on the day in the 1973 World Final the evidence is on youtube for all to see. Remember this is a Polish referee under pressure from 170,000 Polish fans in the stadium. At an earlier point in the meeting Dave Lanning commentating remarks that "the Polish authorites are making up the rules as they go along". When it comes to the controversial run-off with Mauger, Mauger is first up to the gate and as expected looks at the track and does some "gardening". Szczakiel then comes along and inexplicably does not look at the track but sits about over half a bike length back from the tapes.The Polish start marshal who has a duty under the rules to assist the referee in getting "a fair and equal start" does nothing to order Szczakiel up to the tapes. There is nothing to indicate that the riders have been brought under starters orders but Szczakiel rolls forward from his position a metre or so back from the tapes and just as he gets there the referee lets the tapes go. It is impossible to avoid the opinion that it was a stitch up and that Szczakiel knew in advance that the ref was going to let the tapes go when he got there. I am sorry but I cannot escape the opinion that that meeting was the biggest stitch up in World Championship history.

1Ivan actually won his 6th World Title when he was about 3 weeks short of his 40th birthday, having been born on 4th Oct 1939 which I think makes him the oldest man to win the title. He was also one of the oldest men to win it for the first time.He didnt win his first title until he was nearly 29 having had to wait until the two truly great riders were past their sell-by dates. He was one of the greatest but not THE greatest 2. I presume your use of the word "fluke" is a polite way of saying "cheat" in which case I would agree with you, although it has to be said that Szczakiel and Mauger raced each other something like 15 times over the years and the honours were something like 8 wins to Mauger and 7 to Szczakiel (can't remember the exact ratio), so the Pole did have a better record against Ivan than most.

Look at Orions post 256 at 9-40 am today this page. What he said was its more about selling tickets and making money than a World Championship. Do you agree or not agree ?

Absolutely correct. The operative word is earned.

Richardson was also rider of the year at Eastbourne last year, so he is a very popular rider in three clubs out of nine which is about as much as most riders are. Bomber and Tai can't claim any exceptional support outside of their own clubs. But the GP's are not about being popular and I can't believe you seriously think it is going to take Tai and Bomber to keep the British fans interested. Seriously, how much interest did Bomber generate in the GP's last year ?

This is the problem when you come in half way through the thread without properly reading what has been said before. Orions basic point, quite correctly was that NONE of the Brirish riders are good enough for the GP's at the moment. He then went on to say that of the Brits Rico is the most successful on European tracks but he still maintained that even Rico was the best of a bad bunch and none of them should be in it. So when you say that a place in the 2010 GP's for Rico cannot be justified we are all with you on that one, but if it can't be justified for Rico then neither can it be justified for any of the others. Personally I like Bomber and would love to see him do well but there is nothing in his past record that suggests he has the ability to ride well on the continental tracks, and if you can't do that you won't make the top 8 in the GP's. Which ever way you break it down the plain fact is that the inclusion of Tai and Bomber is a smoke-and-mirrors job because they are British, and not because they are GP standard riders. In plain language they are not there on merit. You could just about make a case for Bomber on the basis of his position in the GP challenge but then you would have to apply a totally different test for Tai who didnt get anywhere near the GP challenge.

You are still missing the point of what was being said in Orions posts. No doubt plenty of clubs in England would choose Bomber over Rico but the point Orion was making was that 10 out of 11 GP's are not raced in England, they are raced on the Continent and the records show without a shadow of doubt that Rico is by far the most successful rider on the continent. Its not a difficult concept to grasp.

Thats because Swindon fans are bright enough to realise that Rico's average is too high to be in a team that already has Leigh Adams. Orion doesn't always get it right but this time he is right on the money i.e.:- a) None of them are really good enough to be in the GP's but;- if you have to pick one of the Brits then Rico's gating and riding style is better suited to the GP tracks than the rest of them. That doesn't mean he is a genuine GP rider it just means he is the most suitable of what we have. Can't spell,it out any plainer that that.

....and who should the one brit in 2011 be? Kennett ? Barker ? Steady ? Bridger? Give Nichols another go? The barrell is empty. Might as well face the fact now.

Daft comment. None of us have any say in it or any money at risk. We're still entitled to discuss it. Its interesting to see what other people think even if we don't agree with them. Thats the whole point of the forum.

Well said Salty.That is precisely why GB is light years away from having a top 3 finisher, let alone a World Champion. We are condemned to the "gallant loser "status for evermore it seems. This season we have seen more than ever the sound of the commentators at the GP's getting excited to the point of practically wetting themselves at the thought of "a British rider making the semi's" in the first half of the season and by the second half of the season it was reduced to the prospect of winning a heat. We treat heat winners as if they won the title. They will not be hungry enough if they keep getting an easy ride. Sam Ermonlenko said virtually that on one of the broadcasts. I am surprised people keep falling for it all the time. It also saddens me to think that if Tai goes two or three years without making an impact the same people singing his praises now will have their knives out. Just it was with Harris when he seemed a good prospect a few years ago, and just as it was with Nichols and Richardson before that. Tai is still very young. Even the top riders now, other than Emil were held back and allowed more time to develop. Rightly so in my opinion because it is a very tough sport. The empasis is too much on youth. With the exception of Emil it is the older riders that dominate, and Tai is no Emil. Steve Shovlar was absolutley right(not often I say that) those who make the selections are clueless.....unless the emphasis on youth is to try to turn the whole circus into a kind of speedway version of the x-factor where its all about image rather than talent.

Why ? Do Brits have some kind of divine right to be in, even if they are not good enough ?

I wish you had made that post at the start of the thread Seb then we could have avoided all this discussion because you have managed to encapsulate everything that could realistically be said on the subject within the realms of common sense.I don't think anyone can sensibly add anything to that post apart from the wishful thinkers, and the crystal ball gazers. Very good post.

How do you know Lingren would have freed up another spot for Holder. Take a step back from the present situation. Is it by any stretch of the imagination fair that riders get seeded through just because the are British while more talented riders are left out ? I am not knocking Harris and Woofinden as individuals but the system of selection cannot be regarded as fair, especially as there are no fixed criteria selection, just opinions of officials.

I can see where you are coming from but the bottom line is that Bomber came much closer to qualifying than any of the other Brits including Woffenden, and for that matter closer to qualifying than the likes of Zagar and Lindback. If you are going to go to the bother of having qualifying rounds then some regard has to be paid to riders performance in those rounds. If at the end of it all riders are just going to be seeded in from discussions behind closed doors we might just as well do away with the qualifying rounds altogether. GP's are all about stringing 7 good races together in one evening. If a rider can't do that in a qualifying round why should we assume he will contribute anything to the GP's ? Once we are on the road of wild cards being decided on by faceless wonders behind closed doors the whole thing becomes a matter of sucking up to the right people. if you look at the whole history of World Championship Speedway the cream have always qualified year on year and the rest have changed year on year. Why should Harris and Woffenden go through on the basis of someones opinion ? Why should Andersen and Lindgren be given a safety net that wasn't afforded to Proteseiwicz, for example ? If you are going to nominate qualifyers by committee why not go all the way and nominate the World Champion by committee ? Given the way this thing has now panned out we can say with a fair degree of certainty that if Holder had not qualified at Coventry the chances are he would not been given a wild card because of the perceived need to have 2 British riders in, despite the fact that he has more talent that the two of them put together. Lets just remember throughout the GP season that Harris and Woffenden are there on selection, not on merit.

True, and that is the strongest argument there is for having a variety of track surfaces at the GP's.

Sorry, I must be missing something. What is the relevance of Rico scoring 0?

Well said. I am a fan of Ed and I would love him to do well, but that doesn't mean I think he justifies selection. We have seen how the GP's chew up and spit out riders that struggle. Ed is nowhere near top of the averages for British riders. Nor is Tai.