frenchy

Thanks for that Prodons.

Rob, If you are referring to the Daily Mail National Trophy then an article I read a couple of years back (possibly in a VSM) said the trophy was kept in the vaults of the sponsoring newspaper and so was still in existence. Since reading that article I've often thought that it was a shame that the competition hadn't been reinstated and the trophy reused. As an aside, after reading through old records and yearbooks I'd been wondering what becomes of the trophy that the riders win - things like 'Second City Trophy', 'Laurels', 'Scottish Riders Championship' et al. What does become of the prizes (kept, sold/pawned, returned) ? Cheers.

Alan - In 65 & 66 'Boro were an Open track. In 65 they, as far as I know, only raced 1 team challenge. In 66 they raced 10 team matches of which 9 were in the 'Northern League' & 1, against Hackney, a 'pure' challenge. Most open (aka non-league) teams still have nicknames (such as Rye House's Red Devils & Roosters) so my question would be, for 65 &, especially, 66 what nickname (if any) did 'Boro use ? Many thanks for the help BTW.

Thanks for the replies chaps. One question based on Alan's reply - Alan you state the 'Bears' was pre-61 and 'Teesiders' from 68 to 72, what were nicknamed in between 60 & 67 ? Thanks again.

Did Middlesbrough use the 'Bears' nickname in 1968 and 1969 ? I know they became the 'Teeside Tigers' for 1970 and a few years on from then. Thanks.

Unfortunately I don't have a lot of info on 60 and 61 but what I have gives Young a league only average in 1960 around 9.5 and in 1961 around 8.

Norbold, Whilst I understand what you mean, the final League averages for 1958 for Young & Crutcher make quite interesting viewing (I've included averages for both teams rather than just the individuals & these averages include bonus points) - Southampton Alby Golden 5.74 Jimmy Squibb 6.33 Dick Bradley 8.39 Chum Taylor 7.73 Brian Hanhan 6.57 Johnny Hole 5.25 Brian Crutcher 10.03 Brian Brett 0.00 Split Waterman 7.47 Leo McAuliffe 5.60 Coventry Jack Young 10.02 Arthur Forrest 8.00 Nick Nicholls 4.46 Ron Mountford 6.64 Maury Mattingley 5.47 Les Owen 2.62 Peo Soderman 7.78 Jim Lightfoot 6.88 Reg Duval 4.89 Eric Hockaday 4.67 0.01 of a point difference between them (and that could be more a computer rounding issue than anything) Crutcher's League record is 77 rides 189 points 4 BP He was a late starter in 1958. Though as I don't have complete records for all of '58 he may have been making a come back from an early season injury, but the first meeting I have details of him for was against Belle Vue on the 17th June. It looks like he was a replacement for Split Waterman who disappeared from the Saints line up when Crutcher started riding for them. Whilst Young was with the Bees all season long. His League record being - 97 rides, 237 points & 6 BP

Thanks Steve. Presumably no idea when they'll appear (especially after the update on the Researcher site dated the 6th Feb) ? Frenchy

Hi, BL2 match between Eastbourne & Doncaster on 1st June 1969 (47-30) Can anyone help me with the heat details for the above match please ? I've got the points scored by the Doncaster riders but that's all. Thanks.

Parsoles, the info I have is as follows (all 4 matches were away and all were League matches) - Ipswich 17/4/69 36-42 (i.e. win for Rochester/Romford). Both Phil Woodcock & Barry Duke 4 rides 12 points. Long Eaton 24/4/69 32-46. Again Duke, in his final appearance for the club(s), 4 rides 12 points. Ross Gilbertson's debut for the Bombers. Middlesbrough (Teeside) 8/5/69 42-36. Bombers first defeat. r/r for Duke. Gilbertson 5-14 top scorer Canterbury 10/5/69 42-35. Again r/r for Duke & again Gilbertson top scored with 5-14. Opened at Romford on 29/5/69 with a challenge against Crewe, which the Bombers won 45-33 with both Woodcock & Gilbertson on 4-12 & Tony George on 4-11-1. (Info from various sources not programmes).

Hi, Can anyone confirm the nickname that Rochester rode under in 1969 ? I've got them down as the Bombers but I'm not sure if I'm transposing Romford's nickname on to them (BTW before anyone pulls me up, Rochester did ride 4 matches under the banner of Rochester before decamping over to Romford). Cheers.

Hi Steve, Many thanks for the info. re the Britannia shield match, it was really that I wondered if they'd decided to allow the abandoned match between the 2 clubs to stand, looks like not especially as the final between the group winners was at the end of August. Bob - pretty impressive away full maximum from Brian Crutcher too (defeating Young twice on his home track).

Hi, Can anyone give me the heat details of the League matches raced between Coventry & Southampton in 1958 please ? The Southampton home match was on the 20th May 1958 whilst the return at Coventry was on the 18th August 1958. Also, does anyone know if the Belle Vue vs Ipswich Britannia Shield (North) match was raced ? Was the score from the rain abandoned meeting between the two sides on the 10th May allowed to stand ? Cheers.

Looking through my records I've got the following career details (cannot guarantee 100% accuracy I'm afraid but should be close) - 1947 Stoke (Hanley) in National League Division 3 38 matches league average c5.3 1 full & 1 paid maximum 1948 Stoke (Hanley) in National League Division 3 59 matches league average c8.92 6 full & 4 paid 1949 Stoke (Hanley) in National League Division 3 59 matches league average c9.19 8 full & 2 paid 1950 Stoke in NL Division 2 50 matches League average c6.22 7 full 1951 Stoke in NL Division 2 47 matches League average c6.65 2 paid 1952 Stoke in NL Division 2 48 matches League average c5.16 1 paid 1953 Liverpool in NL Division 2 10 matches League average c6.1 no maximums. Last match I've got him listed as riding in, is for Liverpool at Glasgow (WC) on the 20th May 1953 For more details on his Stoke career you could try the 'potted history of Stoke Potters' sold via Speed-away (I think). Hope this helps (if you want bonus point figures I can get them for you, let me know) ?

Understand your explanation and the rationale behind it and many thanks. However, a reserve wining 4, or more, rides IS credited (just check out the track reviews or yearbooks) with a full or paid maximum, so who they rode against is immaterial. ! It's only when less than 4 rides have been taken and a rider is unbeaten that it appears that the rider is not credited with a maximum. See also the recent thread on this site regarding riders from opposite teams recording maximums in the same match - both riders are credited with a maximum (if over 3 rides) but have not raced each other in that match or so it appears. Interesting Bobbath, did Seery have 'official' approval for his definitions or is it just that he said it so often that 'fiction becomes fact' and we now just accept it because it's what we've always been told ?

Are you sure that they were using the nickname of 'Dukes' then ? I thought that nicknames weren't introduced until the early 30's - after Halifax's closure. The Speedway Researcher at one time had a national list of publications (newspapers etc) that had at one time or another carried Speedway reports in, do you want me to try and find further details on were the Researcher's list is for you ?

Look in any yearbook (well since the 70's anyway), the Star's annual roundup, most places were results are given and they all only count a maximum as having occurred when the rider has taken 4 or more rides. It's really why I thought I'd ask if anyone knows the reason as, per your Legg and Elkins examples, a 4 ride minimum doesn't make sense to me. Either a rider is unbeaten (for that meeting/match) or not, does it matter how many rides they've had ? Both maximums to me. Actually, I think there might be a slight advantage (other than being paid more !) in that you can say I went through x number of matches unbeaten - bragging rights I suppose.

Can anyone explain why a rider is said to have recorded a maximum (doesn't matter whether 'paid' of 'full') only when they have ridden unbeaten (by an opponent) in 4 or more rides ? Surely, you've still scored 'maximum' if you are unbeaten after 1,2 or 3 rides (especially if you've been unable to continue in the meeting for some justifiable reason such as injury) ? Back in the mist of time - in the 30's for instance, matches were over 9 heats with riders taking only 3 rides each - so do none of the times a rider was unbeaten by an opponent (and for those times, by a team-mate too) count as a rider having scored a 'maximum' ? From the 40's onwards reserves have been limited in the number of rides they are programmed with compared to their team-mates (2 rides under the 14 heat format used through to the mid-50's, 2 rides for the early 13 heat format, 3 rides for the 'traditional' 13 heat format). Just why shouldn't we record a riders' unbeaten efforts as a 'maximum' when he is undefeated in a meeting/match however many rides he's taken ? Any ideas (and I've tried to keep this reasonably short so please don't pick up on some of the inconsistencies and fudges) ?

Meeting details are available here - http://www.speedwayresearcher.org.uk/docs/halifax/1948.pdf Don't think there's any pictures, programmes etc though.

Glasgow (WC) file on Speedway Researcher website gives details et al - http://www.speedwayresearcher.org.uk/docs/glasgow/1950.pdf About 2/3rd's way down file.

Thanks Norbold and yes to the scorers please. To bobbath - I think the stadium is long gone now. Try the defunct speedway tracks website, it might have more info. Wombwell also raced in the League circa 1929 (sorry but don't remember details so can't recollect if it was at the same venue as the 47-48 team).

Hi, Can anyone help please ? I've got conflicting information regarding the result (and heat details) for the Wombwell v Stoke match on the 27th August 1948. Some sources (the team files from the Speedway researcher website) state that this was a League match which finished 53-31 to Wombwell. However, the year file on the same website as well as Howard Jones's 'Complete History of Stoke' both show that this was an Anniversary Cup match that ended 58-38 to the Colliers (which I suspect is the true result). In addition the Researcher team files give details of two other league meetings where Wombwell was at home to Stoke (teams rode each other twice home and away in the league this season). So can anyone help clear up my confusion please ? Cheers.

Thanks David much appreciated.

Thanks Arnieg much appreciated. Doh !! I should have cross referenced that Leicester result !

The only sources I have available are from the Yearbook (97% reliable) and the results file from the Speedway Researcher (SR) website. However ...... with a bit of thought and checking the Hull 1979 file on the SR website your date of the 15th for the 1st leg must be correct as the Vikings were at Coventry on the 13th for the League showdown ! The match on the 4th November at Boston is one that I knew about but forgot to list (bother !). I think it was one of the forumla 5 challenges that Boston ran that year and was a benefit for the injured Steve Clarke. The 4TT on the 13th came from the SR file listed above. We've both got the individual on the 5th May listed. The 4TT on the 24th June you've got missing is the Semi, your details are for the Final (both Semis & final were held on the same day - 48 heats). At the end of the day it must have been a great year to have been a Cradley season ticket holder as well as a Cradley rider ! (BTW my team at the time was Reading, I was glad I missed our home match against the Heathens !)