frenchy

Thanks for that Prodons.

Rob, If you are referring to the Daily Mail National Trophy then an article I read a couple of years back (possibly in a VSM) said the trophy was kept in the vaults of the sponsoring newspaper and so was still in existence. Since reading that article I've often thought that it was a shame that the competition hadn't been reinstated and the trophy reused. As an aside, after reading through old records and yearbooks I'd been wondering what becomes of the trophy that the riders win - things like 'Second City Trophy', 'Laurels', 'Scottish Riders Championship' et al. What does become of the prizes (kept, sold/pawned, returned) ? Cheers.

Alan - In 65 & 66 'Boro were an Open track. In 65 they, as far as I know, only raced 1 team challenge. In 66 they raced 10 team matches of which 9 were in the 'Northern League' & 1, against Hackney, a 'pure' challenge. Most open (aka non-league) teams still have nicknames (such as Rye House's Red Devils & Roosters) so my question would be, for 65 &, especially, 66 what nickname (if any) did 'Boro use ? Many thanks for the help BTW.

Thanks for the replies chaps. One question based on Alan's reply - Alan you state the 'Bears' was pre-61 and 'Teesiders' from 68 to 72, what were nicknamed in between 60 & 67 ? Thanks again.

Did Middlesbrough use the 'Bears' nickname in 1968 and 1969 ? I know they became the 'Teeside Tigers' for 1970 and a few years on from then. Thanks.

Unfortunately I don't have a lot of info on 60 and 61 but what I have gives Young a league only average in 1960 around 9.5 and in 1961 around 8.

Norbold, Whilst I understand what you mean, the final League averages for 1958 for Young & Crutcher make quite interesting viewing (I've included averages for both teams rather than just the individuals & these averages include bonus points) - Southampton Alby Golden 5.74 Jimmy Squibb 6.33 Dick Bradley 8.39 Chum Taylor 7.73 Brian Hanhan 6.57 Johnny Hole 5.25 Brian Crutcher 10.03 Brian Brett 0.00 Split Waterman 7.47 Leo McAuliffe 5.60 Coventry Jack Young 10.02 Arthur Forrest 8.00 Nick Nicholls 4.46 Ron Mountford 6.64 Maury Mattingley 5.47 Les Owen 2.62 Peo Soderman 7.78 Jim Lightfoot 6.88 Reg Duval 4.89 Eric Hockaday 4.67 0.01 of a point difference between them (and that could be more a computer rounding issue than anything) Crutcher's League record is 77 rides 189 points 4 BP He was a late starter in 1958. Though as I don't have complete records for all of '58 he may have been making a come back from an early season injury, but the first meeting I have details of him for was against Belle Vue on the 17th June. It looks like he was a replacement for Split Waterman who disappeared from the Saints line up when Crutcher started riding for them. Whilst Young was with the Bees all season long. His League record being - 97 rides, 237 points & 6 BP

Thanks Steve. Presumably no idea when they'll appear (especially after the update on the Researcher site dated the 6th Feb) ? Frenchy

Hi, BL2 match between Eastbourne & Doncaster on 1st June 1969 (47-30) Can anyone help me with the heat details for the above match please ? I've got the points scored by the Doncaster riders but that's all. Thanks.

Parsoles, the info I have is as follows (all 4 matches were away and all were League matches) - Ipswich 17/4/69 36-42 (i.e. win for Rochester/Romford). Both Phil Woodcock & Barry Duke 4 rides 12 points. Long Eaton 24/4/69 32-46. Again Duke, in his final appearance for the club(s), 4 rides 12 points. Ross Gilbertson's debut for the Bombers. Middlesbrough (Teeside) 8/5/69 42-36. Bombers first defeat. r/r for Duke. Gilbertson 5-14 top scorer Canterbury 10/5/69 42-35. Again r/r for Duke & again Gilbertson top scored with 5-14. Opened at Romford on 29/5/69 with a challenge against Crewe, which the Bombers won 45-33 with both Woodcock & Gilbertson on 4-12 & Tony George on 4-11-1. (Info from various sources not programmes).

Hi, Can anyone confirm the nickname that Rochester rode under in 1969 ? I've got them down as the Bombers but I'm not sure if I'm transposing Romford's nickname on to them (BTW before anyone pulls me up, Rochester did ride 4 matches under the banner of Rochester before decamping over to Romford). Cheers.

Hi Steve, Many thanks for the info. re the Britannia shield match, it was really that I wondered if they'd decided to allow the abandoned match between the 2 clubs to stand, looks like not especially as the final between the group winners was at the end of August. Bob - pretty impressive away full maximum from Brian Crutcher too (defeating Young twice on his home track).

Hi, Can anyone give me the heat details of the League matches raced between Coventry & Southampton in 1958 please ? The Southampton home match was on the 20th May 1958 whilst the return at Coventry was on the 18th August 1958. Also, does anyone know if the Belle Vue vs Ipswich Britannia Shield (North) match was raced ? Was the score from the rain abandoned meeting between the two sides on the 10th May allowed to stand ? Cheers.

Looking through my records I've got the following career details (cannot guarantee 100% accuracy I'm afraid but should be close) - 1947 Stoke (Hanley) in National League Division 3 38 matches league average c5.3 1 full & 1 paid maximum 1948 Stoke (Hanley) in National League Division 3 59 matches league average c8.92 6 full & 4 paid 1949 Stoke (Hanley) in National League Division 3 59 matches league average c9.19 8 full & 2 paid 1950 Stoke in NL Division 2 50 matches League average c6.22 7 full 1951 Stoke in NL Division 2 47 matches League average c6.65 2 paid 1952 Stoke in NL Division 2 48 matches League average c5.16 1 paid 1953 Liverpool in NL Division 2 10 matches League average c6.1 no maximums. Last match I've got him listed as riding in, is for Liverpool at Glasgow (WC) on the 20th May 1953 For more details on his Stoke career you could try the 'potted history of Stoke Potters' sold via Speed-away (I think). Hope this helps (if you want bonus point figures I can get them for you, let me know) ?

Understand your explanation and the rationale behind it and many thanks. However, a reserve wining 4, or more, rides IS credited (just check out the track reviews or yearbooks) with a full or paid maximum, so who they rode against is immaterial. ! It's only when less than 4 rides have been taken and a rider is unbeaten that it appears that the rider is not credited with a maximum. See also the recent thread on this site regarding riders from opposite teams recording maximums in the same match - both riders are credited with a maximum (if over 3 rides) but have not raced each other in that match or so it appears. Interesting Bobbath, did Seery have 'official' approval for his definitions or is it just that he said it so often that 'fiction becomes fact' and we now just accept it because it's what we've always been told ?