G the Bee

An interesting point Keith but I wonder whether your opinion would be the same if you supported an EL team. A hypothetical situation. Imagine the GPs are 20 odd years ago. You are now told you can't have Erik Gundersen until early April at the earliest because he is needed in NZ from the last week of March. Because Erik is World Champion he has also been asked to go over the week before to undertake promotional activities so won't be available for your press and practise day or pre-season challenge matches either. Of course, your argument 'who wouldn't want to compete for the possibility to be World Champion?' is correct, and riders signing up for the GP will have to go to NZ if it appears on the calendar, but I wonder how many of them will be happy about it.

I really don't see how that is relevant. We are not talking about communication between leagues and their fixtures but between BSI/IMG and the leagues in the UK and Poland. The season dates in all three major European leagues are well known. The UK season starts in mid-March and has done for decades! This isn't just a normal, extra GP. It is one which could tie up a GP rider for as good as a whole week. I think it is relevant to point out that the GP product is reliant on league racing to supply and develop their riders. How many GP riders have not progressed through the league system in one of the three major leagues? I suspect also that for many GP riders, their league fixtures subsidises their GP ones. Is it therefore reasonable to assume BSI/IMG would at least consult the leagues who, ultimately, supply and develop one of their key resources for their product (the riders)? For all I know, this dialogue could have happened. I am just asking the question. I welcome the extra GP and the broadening of the series and am a huge fan of the GPs. I just question the timing that's all. For what it's worth the UK does consult (or at least take into account) other leagues when deciding fixtures. How many Elite League fixtures take place on Tuesdays and Sundays?

Perhaps this is a knee-jerk reaction, but... I imagine this would have huge implications for the start of the UK and Polish seasons (last year the Extraliga started on the first Sunday in April). Is it safe to assume the season in both leagues might not get going until the second week of April as a result of this GP? I would imagine for a GP on a weekend in NZ, you might as well write a GP rider out of fixtures from at least the Tuesday/Wednesday before (in this case, the last week of March). The riders would also need a couple of days to get back and rested. I imagine Monday fixtures (at least) would also be out following the GP (the first few days of April). You might as well write off a whole week of EL fixtures for those riders. GP's on the other side of the world are much more complicated to deal with in comparison to European events, especially in terms of getting equipment to and from the GP. I seem to recal the Australian event being unpopular for that reason. How long will it take the riders to get their equipment back from the GPs? I personally have no problems with the UK season starting in April, rather than mid-March as it seems to at present, but a GP fixture on this date would also rule out racing in the first week of April for Monday night clubs too! A week (or preferably two) earlier would be a much better option in my opinion. Obviously there is then the issue of a large gap between GP dates, but would this really be a huge problem? I wonder if BSI/IMG have consulted with the UK and Polish authorities on this. I would like to think they have, but wonder if this is the case. Perhaps Mr Rising, with his contacts at BSI/IMG might be able to fill us in?

I'd rather take a few long distance plane trips, sipping a few beers and watching a few movies whilst looking forward to my holiday than sit in a car in a traffic jam on the motorway, but perhaps I'm strange like that! People aren't complaining, just stating a fact. The date chosen seems strange for a number of reasons: School holidays and people being on their annual holidays as a result Bank holiday weekend Bank holiday traffic Football season having started But, as another poster stated, BSI would have been aware of these issues and still chose the date they did. I suspect it may have been the only viable date that fitted in with the stadium's availablilty and the agreements they already have in place with other SGP venues. I also think the gate will be down, but only time will tell. Perhaps having it during bank holiday weekend will be a masterstroke.

A valuable contribution in stating the obvious!

If this is true, I also must question the wisdom of holding this event during the school summer holidays, and to go for August Bank Holiday weekend seems even more strange. Many people will be on their annual holidays over that week and the traffic on the roads during August bank holiday weekend is horrendous. Cardiff has limited hotel capacity and they are always booked solid for GP weekend in June, so many people are going to have to brave the holiday traffic for this one. Would have been lovely, just for once, to have had Cardiff as the final GP of the season. I know BSI have to work around stadium availability etc but to see the world champion crowned at Cardiff would have been a great 'thank you' gesture to all of the British fans who have supported the Cardiff GP over the past 11 years. Perhaps BSI have already signed a contract elsewhere for the final GP of 2012.

Thanks Mateusz, I never considered he might be a reserve! Am used to seeing Polish reserves in Heat 1 (because that's where they ride in Ekstraliga I presumed it would be the same). Thought Shamek was Pila's number 1 (which seemed logical when he went out in heat 2 - because the Ekstraliga number ones do!). Can't believe he is even riding in Liga 2, never mind as a reserve! Cheers.

Ok, here's one for some of our Polish friends or perhaps anyone else a little more 'in the know'. I've been watching the Pila Liga 2 meeting updates on Sportowefakty and I can't work out what is going on with Shamek Pawlicki. He seemed to take a 5:1 with Piotr in his first programmed ride and then seems to appear for the rest of his rides up until heat 14 as replacements for other riders. Yet no other programmed rides appear for him between heats 2-14 He then took a ride in Heat 14 (with no replacement noted next to his name on the update screen). Am I going mad? Here is the link: http://live.sportowefakty.pl/launch_speedway_2845.html

We've been to Prague for the last two years. Enjoyed every time and want to go again this year. Not sure what we paid last year but two years ago we paid 580czk to stand (plus a 30czk booking fee). Don't think it was much more in czk to stand last year but obviously it worked out more because the pound had fallen so much against the Koruna. We book on line through Ticketstream (as I think you have to) and had no problems. Work out the prices this year! The stadium has many more seats now and the cheapest ones appear to be 950.00czk. I can only book them online through Ticketstream.cz with a credit card (like I do every year). My credit card company are giving me approx 27.68czk to the pound, making the price of a ticket around £34-35. There is a cheaper price available of 700.00czk but I think this is for standing as the colour code it relates to isn't available. No problem with standing as we have stood for the last two years, except you cannot appear to buy standing tickets on line. They are only available on the day, which presents problems: The flight we want doesn't get into Prague until Saturday afternoon. If there are only a limited amount of standing tickets for sale (as much of the old standing area is now seating) I don't want to run the risk of the standing tickets all being gone by the time we get to the stadium. It looks like the only standing area is now the second bend. It used to be the whole of bend 2 plus the back straight. I know the poor exchange rate is a massive factor, but the price we may pay for tickets this year will be around double what I recall we paid two years ago! Two years ago you were getting around 40czk to the pound. My GP tickets in 2007 cost around £15-£16! Even with seating, the Marketa Stadium is hardly Cardiff, but it will work out more expensive to get a seat there! Not sure I am going to let the fact that my ticket price has doubled stop me going but if the other people I want to go with don't fancy the extra cost, we might have to knock it on the head.

I tell you what's annoying. Going for a weekend to Burnham-on-Sea. Going round the pubs on Saturday afternoon trying to get someone to put the speedway on. Finding a pub who are happy to show it. Then, getting into a conversation with some drinkers in the pub about how they went to Somerset once and found speedway (for want of a better word) boring. I explained how Somerset has a reputation for good racing and that, just like any sport there were good meetings and bad ones. I suggested they gived Somerset another chance, and also that they watched a little of the GP to show how exciting speedway could be. Didn't I feel stupid.

For Bydgoszcz I thought this was a pretty poor GP. This track is widely regarded as the best in the world, with multiple racing lines, so it was very disappointing to see riders in the main sticking, pretty much to one line. It seemed that unless you were Gollob, moving of the line meant you went backwards. As for the Brits, I thought Bomber gave a good account of himself on his first visit to Bydgoszcz. Not an easy track to visit for the first time and yet he still went into his last ride with an outside chance of making the semis. Who would have thought this would have been the case at the start of the season? Nicholls looked slow (as he has done in many GP's this year). Not an excuse but a fact. Why this should be the case, given his GP experience, is beyond me. We had Havelock on Sky saying they were struggling for a set-up. Is it me, or does it seem that in most GP's we hear the Nicholls camp saying they are struggling for a set-up? So overall, a disappointing night.

Someone summed it up brilliantly when they said something along the lines of, Poland will do the business if the final is in Poland and will struggle if the final is elsewhere. Last year they didn't even get through the race-off at Reading. Amused at Steve Shovlar distancing anyone in Team GB with a Poole connection from last nights performance. I would be the first to put my hand up and say I was extremely disappointed with the performance of the two Coventry Brits. Even though Scott showed glimpses of form, they could have, and should have, done better. Kennett was on a learning curve, true, but he was still beaten by riders who you would have thought he might beat (Watt and Holder). It was clear to me from the first set of heats that our riders machines were not quick enough. Nothing to do with riders not being good enough. I doubt there were many riders in that field who have not been beaten by any of the Team GB riders over the course of this season. Now, I'm not saying that we had a winning team on paper, far from it, but we all know each one of our riders should be capable of picking up more points against the likes of Iversen, Bjerre, Holder, Watt and Sullivan. We looked like a team who had equipment which was unprepared for track conditions and riders who didn't know how to ride it. Surely the Team Manager has a degree of responsibility here. Otherwise, what's the point of him being there? Anyone with a little speedway knowledge can pick 6 riders and decide where to use a Joker!

I think you are doing Bomber a huge disservice Steve. Let's face it, how many on here were expecting Chris to struggle to score against everyone but the wild-card on Saturday night. I also feel that if it had been Edward Kennett's GP debut, and Kennett had produced the same performance and finished one point off the semi's (remember, Chris was little more than half a bike length from making the semi's, because had he passed Hampel in heat 14 he would have been through) then you would have been virtually gushing with praise. You say he didn't do anything, yet he was able to pass both Jonsson and Bjarne Pedersen in two of his rides (although passing Bjarne seems to be almost routine for Chris at the moment!). Furthermore, he scored more than a lot of riders who are vastly more experienced at the top level. So credit where credit is due I say. I'm sure you will point to Lindback as an example of how to make a GP debut, but performances like that are usually the exception to the rule. After yesterday's performance from Lindback, I know who I'd rather be right now!

It would be unfair of anyone to comment on last nights meeting being a true reflection on Bomber's form. His second ride fall seemed to knock the stuffing out of him and I thought he looked quite lively in his first ride, passing Iversen and mounting a challenge on Sullivan. Perhaps this wasn't the case and he just had a bad one. It's hard to tell because I doubt you will hear any excuses from Chris's camp. It's interesting to note, however, that Chris did not ride for Vastervik tonight in their Elite League final against VMS Elit. I sincerely hope that his fall hasn't led to an injury. But if we are bringing up individual meetings....... Stead and Harris came up against each other in the Matt Read meeting last Friday and, whilst Stead beat Harris twice in the team event, in the grand final (the race that mattered), Chris flew past Stead on the back straight of lap 1 and won the heat by nearly the length of the straight. It was as convincing a victory as you will ever see. Now I know testimonials are hardly meetings to judge current form as riders are not going to risk injury by riding too hard and taking risks (Chris himself looked lacklustre in the heats) but I'm sure Stead and Chris, as racers, were both well up for the final, with Chris's performance almost saying "that's the real Chris Harris, catch me if you can" (he couldn't)! Bomber won in easilly the fastest time of the night but, for good measure, set the second fastest time of the night too!

I still think your argument has holes in it, but it's all about opinion isn't it. The problem with statistics is you can always spin them to suit an argument! You place a lot of emphasis about Simon riding as a heat-leader. However, I can see that Stead did not move into the number 1 role until July 1st. Up until that time he was riding outside a heat-leader position. All this time, Bomber was at 1 or 5. Bomber moved out of a heatleader position at the same time as Stead moved into one. For March, April, May and June Chris rode as a heat-leader and Stead did not. For July and August and the few weeks of this month Stead has ridden as a heat leader (but with injuries to Schlein and Nicholls so has Bomber for much of this time too). If anyone's average is skewed because of easier rides then it is not Bomber's. With two GP's in Sweden on permanent Swedish tracks would you not argue that form in Sweden was more relevant than form in GB (where a GP is held only once, and on a temporary track at that)? There are also many people who would argue that Sweden and Poland are stronger leagues than GB. They can make quite a convincing argument. Look at the Luxo Stars, VMS Elit and Vastervik teams as examples. Their teams are so much stronger than British Elite League teams. If you score well in Sweden, you have earned your money! I can't accept your WTC argument. Take the two meetings Bomber and Stead appeared in together and Bomber clearly outperformed Stead. At the risk of sounding harsh, if Chris had been dropped from the final too, then he would have had a better average (by the way I didn't think dropping Stead was the right thing to do)! You are right about conjecture though. Stead could have riden in the final and scored 0. Or he could have scored double figures. That's why, to get a fair reflection, you can only look at the meetings they appeared together in. My point is this. In your earlier posts you said that there clearly is no contest between Bomber and Stead for a GB place. We all have our favourites but I hope my posts have shown that if BSI decide to look at Chris and Simon, Bomber can very much contest Stead for a place. To sum up though, I think your point about next season being a season to early for both of them is spot on. There is no rush to make up the numbers. Both hopefully still have years ahead of them. Anyway, nice to debate with you. That's what the forum is all about. I'm off to Brandon now. Let's see if Bomber can beat Nicki Pedersen again and, more importantly, see if Bees can put in a good performance against Eastbourne. Should be a good one.

I appreciate you are a fan of Stead, just as I am a fan of Bomber.......and I do enjoy a debate. However I still think you're clutching at straws. For the record, I'll say that I don't think Bomber is the most improved rider this year. Olly Allen, for me, gets that accolade. But it has nothing to do whether Bomber or Stead get a GP call up. It's irrelevant. So let's ignore most improved rider arguments shall we? Yes, Stead's average in GB is marginally better than Bombers but I think Bomber will haul him in by the end of the season. Scores in the actual meetings between BV and Cov are taken into account when calculating averages. You can't count them twice. You also forgot to mention that in the meeting Chris scored 4 at Brandon, he only completed 2 rides and in the meeting he scored paid 5 at Belle Vue, he had just returned from tonsillitis and had barely eaten for a week (it's understandable that you might have been unaware of this though). However, by my calculations (discounting double point rides and including bonus points) in all meetings they have ridden in together Stead has scored 80 points from 39 rides, averaging 8.21 and Bomber has scored 71 points from 37 rides averaging 7.67. A difference of just 0.54 in favour of Stead. Are you really going to argue (especially when you take into account the mitigating factors above) that a difference of just half a point makes Stead a clear cut choice for GP qualification above Chris? When they have met on track, more often than not Bomber has beaten Stead this year. The GP is an individual event so this surely favours Bomber. You can't seriously argue we should discount foreign leagues. The Swedish and Polish leagues are certainly as strong as GB's and Bomber's average is two points higher and over 1 1/4 points higher in each league respectively. The form of Jonas Davidsson in Sweden does not mean that the Swedish League somehow lacks credibility. It means that Jonas Davidson is not bringing his Swedish form to GB for some reason. As for the World Cup, I am sure you are aware that Stead's average is only higher in the World Cup because he did not ride in the much more competitive final. To get a fair reflection you must calculate their averages in the meetings they both rode in! Nice try though! Steady, not Bomber, had a poor meeting at Cardiff in front of BSI. Steady, not Bomber, had a poor meeting in the GP qualifier in front of BSI. If you don't think Bomber is capable of riding at 1 or 5, take a look at his recent form. Since Chris has held the Bees captaincy, in the absence of Rory and Scott, he has averaged 10.83 a meeting. The only reason Chris moved from the 1/5 positions was that he had a slow start to the season, which was made worse through illness and mechanical trouble. This is partly why Rory overtook him in the Bees averages. Fair play to Rory, he's had a good season. To all intents and purposes though Chris has been fulfilling the second heat leader role for Coventry since Rory's unfortunate injury and you won't hear too many complaints about his performances from the Bees fans. I feel bad about criticising Stead because I like him. We need both Bomber and Stead in the GP in the years to come. I just don't think, at this moment in time, he is as good as Bomber. You clearly do, but, aside from the fact that over the course of the season (so far) Stead's form for Belle Vue has been marginally better than Bomber's for Coventry I don't see that you have any other evidence to back up your claim. If, by the end of the season, Bomber does catch Stead in the GB averages, what other reasons could you give for Stead's inclusion ahead of Bomber in the GP's?

You make it sound so clear cut, when the actual grounds for including Stead ahead of Bomber are shaky at best. If we are going to analyse statistics, let's look at the wider picture. Most improvement is totally irrelevant. Olly Allen has improved hugely this year, but he is not going to get a GP call up is he? The only thing going for Stead is that in GB (and GB alone) he is averaging more than Bomber. According to the stats in Speedway Star, this is by 0.32 per point. Hardly a huge amount. Based on Chris's current form, I would not be surprised to see him close that gap in the next week or two. However, let’s look at meetings in which they have ridden against each other over here. In heats against each other (Cov v. Belle Vue, Belle Vue v. Cov, Champ of GB and Cov. v. Poole) Bomber has beaten Stead 6 times to 4. At Brandon the other week, when Stead was a guest for Poole, he didn't get near to Chris. But this only tells half the story. The SGP is not held solely in Britain and internationally, Stead's form is not nearly as good as Bomber's. Look at the statistics from http://www.sportowefakty.pl/statelitserien.htm and http://www.sportowefakty.pl/stateliga.htm. In Sweden, Harris's average is over two points higher than Stead's (7.89 v. 5.53) and in Poland it is well over a point higher (6.00 v. 4.71). It's interesting to note the riders who Bomber is ahead of. Lindback, Loram, Zagar, Nicholls, Iversen, Hamill and Lindgren are all averaging less than him in Sweden. Add into the equation Stead's performances in front of BSI. He had a poor meeting in Cardiff this year, was outperformed by Bomber in the GP Qualification meeting and was dropped from Team GB (albeit harshly) for the World Cup. Indeed, whilst neither rider qualified from the Grand Prix Qualifying Meeting last month they did not achieve the same result at all. Bomber was a genuine contender for a GP place. What Bomber achieved in this meeting and what Stead didn't was, in front of BSI, Bomber showed, as he did in the World Cup, that he is capable of performing on the international stage. With his inclusion at Cardiff, Stead has been given more opportunities than Bomber to shine on the world stage this year and has not capitalised on them. So, looking at the wider picture instead of one set of statistics I agree, there is really no contest. Bomber every time.

So Nicholls gave Andersen a nudge coming off bend 4. We see riders nudging each other all the time at this level. It's the world championship and riders are going to ride hard. Compared to the AJ/Pedersen clash in the SWC it was tame! However Hans rode down the middle of the straight and was leaning off his bike into Nicholls entering the corner with his elbow stuck out at practically a right angle into Scott. Replays also show that going into the corner, Scott was ahead. If you ride down the middle of the straight, leaning into another rider there is a chance you will come off. If Hans had rode a natural line down the straight and not leaned into Nicholls, Nicholls would have made a clean pass and Hans would not have come down. Therefore Hans falling was entirely his own doing. Considering the precedent the referee had already made in the meeting with the Lindback and Pedersen exclusions then Scotts exclusion was clearly the wrong call.

The post by 21CH is spot on. It's got to be said that over the two meetings held at Smallmead over the World Cup week, neither provided a great advertisement for Reading Speedway. The final was ok but the racing was not as good as it could have been and the less said about the track for the race-off the better. I'm sure the track staff did their best, but the track for both meetings fell short of standards which should be expected for a World Championship event. Blue groove. Way too slick. Only one genuine line (though I conceed that there were a few outside passes). I appreciate that people are saying it held up to 25 heats of speedway without rutting up and still being nice and smooth, but a permanent track should! At Coventry we regularly have a full second half after the main meeting and by the end of the second half the track is still as smooth as a billiard ball. I also appreciate that it was hot on both days and that on Thursday the riders had to practice in the morning, but Rybnik had to deal with similar circumstances on Sunday and look at the fantastic meeting we got from there. It has been said that Reading was the back-up choice for these meetings as BSI really wanted them at Coventry but they couldn't be fitted in around the stadium's prior commitments. What a shame because if it had been at Coventry, and Gareth and Terry were allowed to prepare a track without outside interference, the Bees management would have provided these meetings with the setting and track their status deserves.

I think the whole issue with rolling comes down to a number of factors with the main ones being poor refereeing and TV schedules, with referees reluctant to call races back too much in case the meeting runs over time. You will often hear riders saying: "My clutch dragged me towards the tapes" or "I rolled down the rut I was using towards the tapes". To me, the only solution is zero tolerance. If a rider rolls and the race is called back for an unsatisfactory start the rider should be hit with a significant fine. Same if a rider touches or breaks the tapes. I reckon that if you were to give it a few months and a few high profile fines you will be amazed at how still riders will be at the tapes! By the way Lupus, I don't think Billy has forgotten how to start. I just think he is not as good now as when he rode for us!

I seem to remember Jason Crump getting a lot of stick after the end of the first SWC in Poland in 2001. I have a feeling that things were thrown at Jason during the Australian celebration parade after the meeting. So this is not an instance which is just related to British fans (although I appreciate that does not make the actions acceptable). It's disappointing to see posters on here claiming to say they are ashamed to be British because of the actions of a huge minority. How many British fans were in the stadium and how many actually caused trouble? Surely the actions committed reflect the nature of the people that committed them rather than the nation they support? Hypothetically, if a group of Coventry fans committed the same act on the riders of an away team I would not say I was ashamed of being a Coventry fan myself. More that I was ashamed that the individuals in question call themselves Coventry fans.

I agree with that Chivs, yet on another thread people seem to be saying that the Aussies would not have been in a position to finish on the rostrum if Crump hadn't scored so many points so he (Crump) can't be criticised for going for his maximum. As far as I'm concerned, it's a team event and Jason might have been better concentrating on what was better for the team in that instance.

Of course I appreciate that, but my thinking was that Mark has a couple of seasons left in him yet. I would hope that by the time he retires, Bomber and Stead have firmly established themselves on the international stage alongside Nicholls and Richardson and one of the youngsters (perhaps Bridger) are ready to make the next step up. It can be done. Look at Lindback a couple of years ago.

People are also free to read posts properly before responding. Didn't I say: "It's a free country, and people are free to support who they like"? I personally could never support another nation as I would see it as an insult to my own country, but, as I said, people are perfectly within their right to do so if they so wish.

What's worrying is that the Aussies look a spent force which means that unless the Brits can up their game, Denmark look set to dominate for the next few years. The Aussies have Adams, Sullivan and Wiltshire all at the wrong end of their careers (and Crump is also no kid anymore) and a big gap then to the next set of riders coming through. I don't think all is lost for the Brits. Nicholls and Richardson are still the right side of 30! Bomber and Stead are only mid-twenties and are gradually improving year-by-year. I think that if we could just get a reasonable replacement for Loram we have hope. Whether it will be enough to compete with the Danes (or to a lesser extent the Swedes), only time will tell. I'm not convinced about Poland. They always look a different team away from their own tracks.