Vincent Blachshadow

It's their end-of-season competition, qualification being through finishing positions in the regular league season, as are our play-offs. It's their play-offs, however you like to dress it up.

So it's the fickle fans then.

Again, you're missing the point that it does work in ice hockey. Why wouldn't it work in speedway? Instead of coming out with posts such as the one I've quoted, tell me why something that works in another bit-part sport won't work in speedway. Is it the fickle fans or the unexciting product on show?

I don't think anybody is against the concept of play-offs just the fact that a season-long competition is devalued by becoming a mere qualifying competition for a few knock-out matches at the end of the season. Your comparable example (ice hockey) shows that the league title doesn't have to be the prize for a play-off competition to be successful. Have play-offs by all means, but for the Craven Cup or something like that.

The example you provide for play-offs in a comparable sport shows the League title does not have to be at stake for play-offs to be successful and well attended. Why are they in the PL? Surely you remember the promotion/relegation farce asked for by Sky. That's why they came in.

No chance. It'll take too long to sort out the bulges to find out which carpet it was swept under.

So why does it work in ice hockey? The end-of-season play-offs aren't for the League Championship but folk still turn up in droves. That indicates to me that, if marketed right and given enough prestige, play-offs work even if the League Championship isn't on offer. So, I'll ask the question again, why do ice hockey fans turn out in their numbers to watch an end-of-season competition that doesn't have the League Championship at stake but speedway fans won't turn up unless the play-offs offer the League Championship as the reward? Again, is it the sport or the people watching it?

Well, that surely backs the argument to have separate play-off champions with a different trophy name - something more grand. The folks should still turn up and the team finishing top will still have the recognition for finishing as official League Champions.

What's so funny? It's not exactly a rare occurrence in speedway - clubs or individuals helping a rider out then a collection being held to recoup the money.

Which is a shame, because as Tsunami has posted, in another sport, the final stages of an end-of-season knockout competition fills the venue - not just for a match, but for a series of them over a weekend. So what's the difference, the sport or the people currently following it?

Yes, I've since been on Wikipedia and seen that this very successful and well supported weekend is the culmination of an end-of-season knockout competition and the winners are just that - play-off winners (although given the title of 'British Champions'). The League Champions are the team finishing top of the pile after the regular league matches. To me, that's fine. I don't disagree with play-offs but not for a league championship (as with football and ice hockey).

Are these play-offs to find the League Champions, as in speedway, or a separate competition for another trophy? Never had much to do with ice hockey so I don't know.

No whinging, just mentioning the way things should be done. Co-operation is preferable to coercion, doesn't get folks' backs up for a start.

The number of riders missing, able to ride, could turn up if arms twisted, stuck in loo, whatever, on whichever day is totally irrelevant. Match dates are supposed to be decided by consultation with the visitors not unilaterally declared by the home team.

Danish Webmaster's score card here:- http://www.holsted-speedway.dk/media/2015/Heatskemaer/SGP10-2015.pdf

I'm not denying that. My point is that speedway has play-offs because they were introduced by or for Sky. Subsequent events don't alter that fact. Had Sky not thought of introducing them we may not have them now since they weren't universally popular within the BSPA at the time of their inception and we have no way of knowing if they would now be a part of speedway had events taken a different path at the turn of the century. My initial posting was in reply to a poster posting why speedway have play-offs. I pointed out speedway has play-offs because they were bought in for or by Sky to ensure the TV company will televise the match at which the EL Champions win the title. I don't deny they make a few bucks for some of the teams that actually qualify - their value to the teams not in the mix isn't quite as clear cut. Semantics possibly, but the reason something actually exists must go back to why it came in, continuing existence is down to the here and now. With that in mind, play-offs exist because of Sky, not because they are now considered a money-spinner, though that is a part of the reason for their continued existence.

Right. Slowly. Back in 2002, because Sky had missed showing the title deciders in the previous three years, they asked (or maybe demanded) that play-offs be introduced so that they can show the finals and definitely get the title decider live, as it happens. Therefore play-offs were introduced and we have play-offs to ensure Sky get to show the title decider live. Subsequent events may have shown that these matches do make a few quid for the competing teams but that does not alter the fact that we have play-offs because Sky want to show the (EL) title decider live. Had events run differently back at the turn of the century and Sky had managed to show the title deciders in those three previous years live, they, in all probability, would have been content with things as they were and may not have asked for play-offs in the first place and the possibility is there that speedway would not have them now. For whatever reason, the PL asked for play-offs (though initially as part of a much heralded by Sky promotion/relegation package which went off like a lead balloon since the PL play-off winners declined promotion and the EL losers insisted on staying up) but that doesn't alter the fact that play-offs are in to ensure Sky show the EL title decider live. So, in a nutshell, the play-offs exist to ensure Sky get the EL title decider live on air as it happens.

Talk about not seeing wood for trees. If you think that's what I've been saying you have it your way. Where is that banging your head against a brick wall smiley....

We have play-offs because Sky asked, insisted possibly even, to have them so they get to show the EL title being won every year. Why we continue to have them is anybody's guess, but I'd go for the BSPA are happy to give a few of the teams a few extra quid at the end of the season though possibly at the expense of attendances in many of the qualifying matches. But if you want to know what time the PL play-off final is on Sky, I suggest you look at their schedules or wherever you get you programme timings from because I no longer watch speedway on Sky nor do I care about play-offs. My domestic speedway is still watched live, less matches these days, but still live.

Weren't play-offs introduced at PL level as 'promotion/relegation matches' in tandem with the bottom two EL teams having their own play-off scrap to stay up to please Sky? You remember, the PL winners winning a much heralded promotion to the EL, with the losing EL club going the other way. Only the winners didn't want to go up and no way were the losers dropping a division!

In 1999, Sky had a full camera crew and entourage at Saddlebow Road to watch Poole win the EL title, live, on Sky. Leigh Adams had different ideas and won heat 15, and with it blowing Poole's title aspirations. They only had a man with a hand-held camera at East of England Showground which was unfortunate because that was where the EL title was won. In 2000, Sky had arranged the end-of-season schedule so that they got the Eastbourne v King's Lynn title decider live on Sky. Unfortunately, The Knights lost a match in the run-up to that meeting handing Eastie the title. The match shown was too late to decide the title so again, Sky missed showing the title decider live. In 2001, Oxford won the title without knowing it (at the time) with future results (by other teams) putting the title out of everybody else's reach. Sky did not have the title decider live. That is why we have play-offs - to ensure Sky got the title decider live every time. And crowds in those matches were far bigger than anything the sport gets now, play-offs included.

But did fans stop going in most places by May before these play-offs came in? That is, however, the reason why the play-offs will carry on, because the sport's current devotees - or enough of them anyway - have been brought up with them and will probably stop going as often if finishing third or fourth meant nothing more than finishing third or fourth. And thanks for posting the low crowd at the Swindon play-off (we have been told that crowds are always bigger at these matches). Shows they could be losing their appeal after all.

Fine. Then have play-offs. Only not for the league championship. Regardless of the financial gain in winning the (football) Championship play-offs, the winners are down as 'also promoted' or 'promoted from play-offs'. They are not heralded as 'League Champions'. That accolade goes to the team that wins over the season not by a fluke goal in the 49th match of a 46 game season. Where a team finishes is irrelevant since fourth (or sixth in PL) is as good as 1st so your little resume of the finish of the PL season is a little superfluous - once qualified, they're in, 2nd or 3rd makes no difference. If you're happy that a team finishing sixth can be heralded as league champions then fine but it doesn't sit easy with me. But I suspect that quite a few agree with this sentiment but are happy with the situation because it gives a failing sport some extra bucks - but only to a small percentage of the teams. Personally, I'd prefer the promoters came up with something that gives every team a few extra quid at the end of the season.

Hmm, ok. Though I have heard folk say, once a team has safely qualified, they're not going to some matches because they're keeping their money for the play-offs. Since top to fourth makes no difference some matches are pointless. Works both ways.

Although I don't agree with league champions being decided by play-offs I know full well they are here to stay. One or two matches for four teams being played in front of higher crowds will see to that. The fact that may be at the expense of attendances for most of the qualifying matches being conveniently overlooked.