Vincent Blachshadow

As I said, there's no evidence many more people go just because a team might make fourth since we don't know how many would have turned up without play-offs and there have been instances of lower crowds once play-off success or failure has been sorted . You have your opinion on this, I have mine. And hasn't there been a post from a Swindon fan (or two) many pages back on this thread about the low turn-out for the second leg of the semi at Blunsden because many thought it was a pointless match due to the deficit? So not even a semi is guaranteed a bumper gate any more. It's the play-off system, and the fact many of today's fans started attending after their inception, that has killed some clubs' seasons by the end of May. It never was like that because, as I said, fans wanted to see their teams finish higher than in the previous season (just like in every other sport back a while) and crowds held up throughout the season. It even happened that, and you may not believe this, some mid-table nothing-to-play-for (in your view) teams had better attendances than top clubs some seasons.

You keep saying speedway needs the play-offs to help the sport survive but that money only goes to the qualifiers who are usually the better off teams anyway. How is that helping the other teams? Yes, Ford turned Poole's fortunes around but not every club can do what it wants so your suggestion that other teams can do the same isn't all that likely. Two tried it, remember?

Hasn't always been like that. What speedway needs to do is for the promoters to come up with something that helps all of speedway not just the better-off few who regularly make the play-offs.

Maybe because, under the old system, a team finished in a finishing position, whether it be first, third, fifth, twelfth, sixteenth or whatever and tried to beat the previous season's finishing position. Now there's just two positions, qualification and failure - first or fourth, makes no difference (a team actually taking a dive to lose a match so as to finish second and get what they saw as easier semi-final opponents) and fifth or bottom, again no damn difference! Now, you may be happy with that but I'm not. I've seen no evidence that crowds are any bigger because a team is trying for fourth place than if they were in the middle of the season's failures - in fact, I've seen smaller crowds once teams have safely qualified probably due to folk saving their sheckels for the so-called main event - so from what I've seen, the only teams to make any money are the qualifiers most of which are usually the better off teams anyway. Because of that I think the play-offs as league championship deciders should be scrapped. Now, I don't give a toss which other sports use play-offs and for what purpose, nor how successful or not they are but I will say this - which league, in this country at least, has the biggest crowds, whether it be Friday night, Saturday lunchtime, teatime, or some other time that day, Sunday lunchtime, teatime or whatever time or even a Monday evening? Yes, Premier League football. Now, to borrow one of your lines, when can I see the (Association Football) Premier League play-offs on Sky?

Without Ward, without a doubt (we three wouldn't have been there for a start). Play-off qualification made not one jot of difference to us and I'd say there were loads of others like us.

Yeah, right! Whoever signed him was going to make a buck or two through folk turning up to see him. It was a good signing for Swindon regardless of the play-offs and Rosco knew that well enough!

That's why the crowds improved - I even went myself to see him ride - nothing to do with getting into the play-offs. And most of the folk I spoke to t were there for the same reason. They'd be there if it was a challenge match!

In other threads we've been told that it's not about the rules, folk go to speedway to watch four blokes go round a track on brakeless motorbikes. Now we're being told that the same folk won't go to play-offs unless the league title's up for grabs. Why's that? It's the same four blokes going round the same track whatever's up for grabs at the end of the match. Weird.

Yes, Im not saying it didn't go down to the wire in '99 but Sky were at King's Lynn showing their match v Poole not at EoES where Peterborough beat Belle Vue to win the title on the same evening.

Actually, Sky missed the Championship being won in '99 and 2000 too. In '99 their whole caboodle was at Saddlebow Road watching Poole miss out when Leigh Adams won heat 15 for the Stars whilst Panthers were quietly going about demolishing Belle Vue to win the title forty or so miles away. Then in 2000 Eastbourne won the title prior to the last match v King's Lynn when the Stars lost elsewhere in their penultimate match (caused by a very punishing schedule to ensure their last match was on that Monday night to fit in with Sky). Sky made absolutely sure they wouldn't miss out again.

Really? I'd agree it's a combination of things but Heaven knows how you can be sure the play-offs aren't one of them.

There's still a heck of a lot stopped going since 2002 though. I wouldn't think anybody has stopped going because of the play-offs per se, but they could well be a contributory factor for some, the straw that broke the camel's back for others. Just one thing among loads but a factor nevertheless.

Yes, if you asked those at a meeting you're probably right. Ask those that no longer go though and your findings may be different. And I firmly believe there's a better chance of getting ex-devotees back than getting total newbies in.

Oh. I was very upbeat until your last line.

Unfortunately the by-product of initially allowing all comers into speedway leagues to make up the numbers rather than having an initial minimum size/ basic shape pattern for newbie clubs to conform to. That may have led to the emergence of more purpose-built tracks, built at a time when crowds were higher and councils more amenable to such things, instead of throwing up a track inside a dog track or outside of a football or rugby pitch just to get another team running. That's not saying that all tracks built inside or around another sporting facility come into the 'don't produce good racing' category, of course. Now they're up and running, it would be unfair to the track and possibly even more detrimental to the sport to shut them down.

Since Sky don't show the GP series I can't see that happening either.

Is this any different to previous years? I thought they'd had pre-AGMs for several years now, it's just that they're telling the public now. And since they've got to hold another meeting to vote in the chairman and committee, which is the 'must attend or you're out' one?

Really? I attended a couple of finals just before that and, as Colin Mills said, they were well attended.

Wasn't that the competition that introduced the farcical match-race option for a team so many points behind? I can't remember exactly because I stopped going when they turned it from a meaningful competition to a Mickey Mouse one. Ah, that could be the 'another reason' you're looking for.

If only speedway could have sold the KO Cup to Sky.

I would say that, in Britain at least, the average sports fan would say that winners of play-offs get promoted.

Ah, I missed the 3rd/4th place play-off - two double headers, then. Could strike lucky, weather's been glorious this past fortnight.

As far as I can gather, the ice hockey finals weekend is the semi-finals one day, the final the next. A double header followed by a single match the next day. Shouldn't be a problem for a National Stadium, surely.

That's been my point all along though - for their play-offs, ice hockey can put out a meaningful competition which is well attended, and successful that doesn't need to deprive the table-toppers of their deserved title. Why can't speedway do the same. Yes, make it different, make it worth going to and it should work. All I've had back is that speedway folk won't go unless it's for the title, seemingly end of.... We could even try the 'same weekend' bit - we'll have our very own National Stadium from next year to stage the competition.

They're play-offs, just like ours. Qualification is by finishing position after the original league fixtures. The initial matches are home and away knockout matches with only the semis and the final being held over one weekend. They are the ice hockey play-offs. Funny that they're play-offs when it suits the 'most sports have play-offs' argument but not play-offs when its 'play-offs shouldn't be for the league championship'